Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU to think that when all things are considered, teachers are on the equivalent of NMW?

191 replies

Glossynotflossy · 03/12/2012 07:24

The extra time spent at home planning, making reources, time spent buying resources (out of your own pocket) basically means that teachers, in reality, are on the equivalent or just above NMW for all the work outside of the actual classroom?

OP posts:
notnagging · 03/12/2012 09:06

Yabu. £40k for being an inner london teacher with 11 weeks off a year is no way near nmw.

TheCrackFox · 03/12/2012 09:07

I really don't think you are doing teachers any favours by starting this thread.

Yes, we all know you work hard but so do lots of people. If you don't like being a teacher then leave and get one of those fabulous NMW jobs.

stopthatmavis · 03/12/2012 09:10

And some people are very fortunate loops to have been able to have that opportunity and start in life.

Nobody is disputing that teachers work hard and most do a fantastic job but please don't tell me that being a teacher is in anyway comparable to the millions of us out there who really do work hard for nmw.

wonkylegs · 03/12/2012 09:11

Most professions do an awful lot more hours than their core minimum it's one of the differences between a career and a job. I wouldn't single out teachers as doing anything more exceptional than others though. Yes they don't have an easy job but that could apply equally to lots of other professionals who also don't earn mega salaries as reward.
I think there is a culture to moan about what teachers do from both sides of the argument whereas in reality they aren't much of an exception in the professional world, they are just a single facet of working life.

cory · 03/12/2012 09:30

Loops, teachers' training isn't particularly long compared to that required by academics or archaeologists or museum staff. They often need PhDs and (in the case of academics) a list of publications. Even somebody working low paid hours in a lab is likely to need a PhD.

TooManyDicksOnTheDancefloor · 03/12/2012 09:32

I'm a teacher and I hate threads like this. I earn enough money to have a comfortable life, I love my job and wouldn't give it up for anything else. I do work outside school hours but that is part of the job, it is not like being on NMW! Stop whinging, it gives the rest of us teachers a bad name.

cory · 03/12/2012 09:36

"I think there is a culture to moan about what teachers do fromboth sides of the argument whereas in reality they aren't much of an exception in the professional world, they are just a single facet of working life."

This.

I've never worked out why it's always teachers who start these threads, and never midwives or lab assistants or pest controllers (my SIL used to work ridiculous hours in pest control).

The beauty of teaching preparation and most academic work is that it can be done with some flexibility.

When my SIL was told at short notice that she had to drive to the other end of the country on a Saturday to sort out a rat problem, she couldn't tell her bosses that she would wait and do it when the children were asleep: she had to get into the car straightaway. And if that was inconvenient to her family, that's just tough.

LoopsInHoops · 03/12/2012 09:38

"And some people are very fortunate loops to have been able to have that opportunity and start in life."

How do you mean? How was I any more fortunate than any others in being able to do this?

Themumsnot · 03/12/2012 09:41

Oh god, there is enough teacher bashing on MN without stirring it up on purpose OP. Comparing the relatively decent wage teachers get with people on the NMW is beyond insensitive. I worked as a TA for a year before I trained as a teacher and I really did earn NMW and term time only at that- look around at the teaching assistants you work with and try figuring out how they manage to support themselves on that.

LoopsInHoops · 03/12/2012 09:41

You're right cory, and it's not enough for them either.

My point though is not so much about the pay, but the conditions. IMO the pay could be more, but is OK. The conditions are often abysmal though.

FunBagFreddie · 03/12/2012 09:42

I don't know why teachers think that they do longer hours and get paid less than everyone else. As other people have said, this is how it works in the real world, all employers want their pound of flesh and they want as much value for money as possible. Everything in life has pros, cons and a certain amount of sacrifice involved. If your job is that bad, leave and find something you like.

cory · 03/12/2012 09:45

I consider myself very fortunate in having been able to go down the academic path and not have to work in a job that is physically damaging, exhausting and dangerous. My particular fortune, as I see it, consists of:

having had the kind of brains that meant I could get into university- plenty of my friends worked harder than me at school and still couldn't make it

having grown up in a family of educated people with access to books, which gave me an instant advantage

not growing up in a poor family where I felt I had to leave school and start earning as soon as possible

being able to concentrate on my school work as a child because my home environment was not disruptive and I did not need to function as a carer for family members (sadly not the case for all children)

That seems rather a lot to be grateful for.

LoopsInHoops · 03/12/2012 09:48

You're lucky cory, but it is perfectly able to get to uni with all of the problems you mention (other than the brains, but then...). I did.

LoopsInHoops · 03/12/2012 09:51

*possible

cory · 03/12/2012 09:52

LoopsInHoops Mon 03-Dec-12 09:41:28
"You're right cory, and it's not enough for them either.

My point though is not so much about the pay, but the conditions. IMO the pay could be more, but is OK. The conditions are often abysmal though. "

This is where I don't get you. In dh's profession, people's bodies are worn out from exposure and hard work by the time they get to 60; they are in pain and often simply can't do the job any more.

In db's former job, several of his mates lost their lives.

SIL (the pest control officer) nearly came off the road several times through exhaustion brought on by long driving.

And as for dh's friend who was a policeman, you could see some drawbacks with that job too- people were often unpleasant or downright dangerous.

So, compared to the jobs of all these other people I know, what is so particularly abysmal about teaching conditions?

cory · 03/12/2012 09:56

The brains is a big if, Loops- did we do anything in particular to deserve those?

ThatDudeSanta · 03/12/2012 09:57

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LoopsInHoops · 03/12/2012 10:05

Not such a big if looking at the calibre of many undergraduates. But no, we did nothing to deserve them, you are right.

cory · 03/12/2012 10:10

But please, answer my post about the abysmal conditions.

How are the conditions worse than those of a policeman dealing with dangerous drug addicts and criminals, a roofer risking life and limb on an exposed roof in the sleet and snow, a nurse being spat on by a drunk in A&E on Saturday night, a trawlerman going down with his ship, a lorry driver or salesman being forced to ignore rules about safe driving/resting for fear of losing his job, an owner of a small business working night and day 7 days a week desperately trying to keep his business afloat?

Journey · 03/12/2012 10:12

Obviously the op doesn't have a clue what other professions earn otherwise she wouldn't have asked such a silly question.

Teachers aren't poorly paid. It is insulting saying that teachers are on what seems to be the NMW to people who are actually on it.

A teacher's day finishes at 3 or 4pm. That's at least 1 to 2 hours prep work they have to take them up to a normal finishing time of 5pm. Plus they have massive holidays which are a dream compared to most jobs.

If it takes a teacher an excess amount of time doing prep work etc then I have to question how competent they're at their job.

If you don't like the teachers' pay then get another job. You knew the salary before entering it so why teachers moan about it when they're in the profession is beyond me. I wish teachers like this would leave the profession and give room to teachers who generally want to teach.

LoopsInHoops · 03/12/2012 10:14

Policeman - fairish equivalent depending on grade. No idea what their pay is like
Roofer - incomparable - education
Nurse - fair-ish equivalent. I'd guess you're just as likely to come across violent behaviour in a secondary school as in a hospital.
Lorry drive - as above
Small business - too general

freddybanana · 03/12/2012 10:15

Ridiculous statement.

Plenty of people in private sector on similar salaries to teachers are doing ridiculous amounts of unpaid overtime. Private sector pensions are pretty crap too these days.

The couple of people I know who have retrained to become teachers later on in life have told me they are better off than when they worked in private sector.

AfterEightMintyy · 03/12/2012 10:18

I would hope that most teachers are well educated enough to know that op's proposition is a ludicrous one.

LoopsInHoops · 03/12/2012 10:18

No degree needed for police.

MathsCat · 03/12/2012 10:21

The OP is talking about teachers being on the equivalent of NMW for the hours worked, not as an actually salary. It probably depends on the subject. As an NQT teaching maths DH was working more than 12 hours a day, plus a large proportion of the weekend. NQTs for humanities nowhere near as much.

Yes the salary's not bad compared to the UK average but it is bad for a graduate. Again I'm talking about maths but someone with a good maths degree could get a starting salary higher than a teacher would earn at the top of the main pay scale. Then places like tesco, which don't require a specific subject, are offering starting salaries above 30k for their graduate schemes now. If people really do want the best graduates (and I actually dispute they make the best teachers, but the government seem to think they do) then it's going to be a hard sell. Yes, there are careers as hard as teaching, but I have friends on these grad schemes paid over 30k a year, who work nowhere near the same sort of hours as a teacher and don't seem under the same sort of stress.