Tory haters: shouldn't you start reining this in?

[Abitwobblynow]

Because the golden geese who have to pay for what you believe are entitlements and who you despise so much, are flying away:

"Almost half of all Britons who emigrate each year are professionals and company managers, potentially threatening the country?s supply of highly skilled workers, research for the Home Office found.
The attractions of a better lifestyle and climate, as well as career opportunities, meant a ?large and increasing? number of executives, scientists, academics and doctors have chosen to leave Britain in the last 20 years, the report said.
Business leaders blamed high rates of income tax for the ?disturbing? rises in the number of professionals leaving Britain for countries such as Australia, American and Canada. Around 149,000 British citizens emigrated last year, and 4.7 million now live overseas."

What do you think? Has the class resentment poison gone just a bit too far, and isn't it just a bit outdated? And was Labour right to stoke this narrative up?

Agree with others who have said that in the main people who emigrate are the most able/trained - this is true for people who emigrate to the UK as well, of course. It's to do with opportunities, not the tax situation.

I lived abroad for years because I wanted to travel around and see the world and I had a job that let me do that. I didn't choose any of the countries I lived in because of taxation issues - in fact, that didn't figure in my thinking at all, or as far as I know in the thinking of any of the friends I had who were living a similar lifestyle to me - it was more 'Where do I fancy going next?' - kind of sticking a pin in a map .

Of course the rich pay literally more tax - do I need to explain the principle of percentages? Give me strength.

These threads are absurd. Why do Tory twits think if they come out with some singular analogy or statement that all the Tory haters will suddenly realise we've been a bit dim all along?

Have we been bored about the gold reserves yet?

DawnDonna - Yes my 5 educated, successful and informed children/stepchildren all educated in the Labour state system.....And their many friends.

Good old subjective evidence countering that stupid comment earlier in this thread.

'Isn't it funny that only the left are allowed to be rude and dismissive'

Um, you might want to re-read your OP there?

A lot of posters have addressed factual inaccuracies in your argument, but instead of debating in any way ...oh, I can't be bothered. You're clearly on a wind-up mission, and it's a good day globally for us lefties so....

Can't be bothered reading the whole thread again - did I miss the bit where " rude and dismissive, whilst accusing people who don't agree with them as stupid, deceitful, twisted and downright evil." I've seen one poster use the word "cuntservative" the majority of posts are just disagreeing with the OP in a non rude way - can't see anyone calling people twisted and evil? or have i missed something? what is the point of starting these threads if you've already decided what peoples response is going to be?

Meanwhile. I'm a professional - my qualification is recognised in Oz, Canada, NZ and America plus a few more places. At some point I might look at jobs abroad (if I had no dc definitely) for the experience and lifestyle differences for the dc and I. Tax doesn't come into it really.

the Telegraph (no suprises there) - so a quality publication is disparaged.
this is exactly the reason why I don't vote Tory. Lack of empirical evidence, misrepresentation of evidence and a failure to grow up! - so I am disparaged. For having THE CHEEK to disagree with the left consensus.

etc etc (and those are just the first few posters) are hardly respectful are they Greeneyes? It is classic left tactics.

He is a fundamentally decent man who cares about people and about the society our DS is growing up in. He absolutely believes that social mobility is vital for our future. - so are most Conservatives.

Look. If you are not even prepared to acknowledge (as the Home office clearly does) that a brain drain is not good for this country, and to look at WHY the brain drain is happening (and does the rate of taxes have anything to do with it? I absolutely agree with the R&D/science/engineering comments of one poster), then we don't have a debate.

We have a sneering, disparaging slanging match. Which you started.

So let us try again, with some attempt to stick to the issue: What part of an exodus of skills and talents, and what part of unskilled welfare-based (or are you going to argue this point too) immigration (as initiated by that catastrophic government, New Labour) is NOT a problem? Their loss of tax take, is that a problem to you?

'Benefit dependency started in the 80's under thatcher' - you are right. Funny how she is seen as so uncaringly evil when she shovelled so much money into benefits have you been drinking OP?

She created a huge welfare bill, agreed. She mismanaged the economy and created greater welfare dependency, just as the Tories are doing now.

If the rich pay a higher percentage of all tax revenue collected it is because they have more income on which to pay it.

If we had greater equality of income then the picture would be very different.

It is short sighted to create surplus labour, welfare dependency and subsidise businesses because it translates to falling profits to those in the top bracket anyway. No wonder we are in decline.....we have been since Thatcher. America is in the soup....has been since Reagan.

They also pay proportionately more - as they should. Give me strength. They pay the vast vast bucket of taxes in this country.

Left wing ideology has dominated education under Labour and Tories alike. Perhaps I should say the left wing rather than Labour. Downgraded it over the years. That vast leap in literacy and numeracy we enjoyed - now reversing. Employers complain about it. Better educated (older) parents complain about it. Benefits complacency and poor education - a lost generation.

DH and I pay the top rate.

I vote labour.

I will happily cover the plane ticket if you decide to emigrate.

"my 5 educated, successful and informed children/stepchildren all educated in the Labour state system"

Well you're alright Jack. So no problem.

Blinkers much.

Yes, Mini. So what do we do about this? Thatcher's misdirection of north sea oil revenues into welfare payments was a huge mistake IMO. But if the consensus is that people are entitled to welfare, why is she seen as evil when she shovelled vast sums their way?

You can't have it both ways. EITHER she was uncaring, or you are going to have to admit she cared.

Just to point out, 'have you been drinking' is disparaging and disrespectful, more of the 'I am caring and morally superior, you think differently and therefore you are evil' leftist mindset. You lot just can't stop yourselves doing it, can you!

And, can we agree: welfare dependency is a CHEAP, cynical and patronising way of ALL governments to shove aside non-productive people into ghettos housing estates out of the way.

So 149,000 'executives/professionals' emigrated - how many came here though?

Ok, the brain drain question OP

Lets do this one step at a time.

We live in a Global economy. We are a developed economy where we have not great equality but certainly higher wages than in other parts of the world. The rich are happy to live here because we are the richer consumer nation/society but they choose to invest elsewhere and they choose to offshore their investments.

capital flees to where it can invest......ie..the opportunities for a 3% profit now exists in different parts of the world where labour is cheap and deregulated. That is where the investment is made not where the profit is realised. The profit is realised through the indebtedness of consumer countries like ours.

Ordinary families here and in the states are up to their eye balls in debt because we can only afford the products of the cheap labourers from China, if we borrow to pay for it. Capitalist make money from cheap labour there, access to interest on the debt here and a market in which to sell their products.

this has NOTHING to do with tax.

SSShhhhhh LittleTyga. Don't bring logic and reason into this.

Education is the only way forward. And not throwing money at it. Raising expections.

OP, it's a joke, you know, heheheheheheeeee. I don't think Conservative supporters are evil, I think many are misguided though because many know nothing of the ideology of the party. They wrongly identify them as being on their side.

If welfare dependency is cheap, why is the coalition making it their sole mission to cut welfare?

YOU started a slanging match with your sneery, ill-tempered, ill thought-out and frankly baffling OP. (I'm still not sure who McMoron is.) I am in far too good a mood to engage with someone as spikey as you, tbh.

Literacy rates are much higher now than they were in the 60s and 70s, of course.

It is all a difficult balance.

Gordon Brown, realised pretty darm swiftly that if we want decent public services the ordinary folk of the UK who use those services won't be able to fund them.

What you need is a small (ish) group of people/businesses who can support it. These people/businesses are highly mobile and a sizable minority are not even from the UK. So how do we keep them here? They aint really interested in our wonderful public services, so we keep them interested by a slippery mixture of tax incentives/opportunity/arts/culture/safe streets etc etc

The difficulty is of course that in the intervening period these people/businesses have become even more flexible and mobile. The ordinary public service users are even more incapable of funding said services (due to the recession). And the UK is becomeing a place that people don't want to be.

Tis a conundrum.

Brycie

I was using my family as contradiction to the argument that labour policy has left people uneducated.

I am an RMN. Believe me, It is impossible to be blinkered in this profession. My children worked hard and were fortunate to be born into a family with the ability to enable this. I am sadly aware that many are not and have most of my life trying to mitigate against this in both statutory and voluntary sectors.

The difference is that I do not vote for a party that blames them totally for this.

In fact, literacy rates are higher now than they have ever been in the UK. So if the answer is education, then that side of the equation seems to have been met. But hang on a bit, the social mobility that we got with the post-war consensus seems to be slowing - we are now a much more unequal society than we were in the 60s and 70s, despite people being better educated - higher literacy rates and record numbers of people going to university. So is education really the answer? Or is it more the case that if you want a more equal society you have to do something fundamental and redistribute wealth?

Excellent points Wallison, too many young people have been sold the lie that education is the answer when actually it's fundamental change that is needed. Now we tell them education is all, only a top uni degree will cut it and it will cost you £9,000 a year. We can't even afford to educate our workforce. Do we need redistribution though? or as Ed said recently pre- distribution? (although his idea of this and mine might differ!)

"I was using my family as contradiction to the argument that labour policy has left people uneducated."

Which of course it does

Any concern for those children let down by an education system which relies on the parents for support?

No, yours were born into a family that "enabled" them.

Pity the poor sods who aren't. You are just part of an elite that passed on your education to your children. Those people who aren't in any kind of education elite rely on state schooling. Except they can't. But never mind - your family is "enabled".

Narked OP needs to come to where I live - there is a constant stream of movement by professionals - we are in a global market and professionals are constantly moved around the globe - where I live I'm surrounded by Americans, South Americans, Chinese, Middle Eastern, African, web designers, bankers, designers, journalists, writers, business owners all operating in a global market, and sometimes they have to go where there company sends them - naff all to do with tax!