to think there should be no such thing as a SAHM

[TalkinPeace2]

they might be an ex investment banker
or a part time nurse
or a part time teacher
or an active volunteer in the community
BUT
in these days where most women are educated at least to 18, very few did not work before kids
and very few will not work when their kids are older
so actually should define themselves by their personal achievements - currently undertaking a prolonged break
rather than some sort of domestic - which is what SAHM implies to me.

Educated women are a fairly recent phenomenon.

Hang on. What I said was I find it harder than full time work. Not every mother - me. That's why her comments about 'dressing it up' are so absurd. Unless you have tried every career and been in every individual's circumstances you can't possibly make a judgement call as to what's harder. Looking after children with special needs? Doing it with a disability? Or working as a cashier...what's harder? Equally working as a social worker with a long list of high priority jobs - all of which you can influence with your input vs staying at home with a ameniable child, sipping tea and reading a magazine. What's harder? This thread is ludicrous for that reason.

There have been (university) well-educated British SAHMs right through the 20th century. Women were not able to pursue their careers after marriage in many professions.

Only rich ones Bonsoir.

The well educated working class woman is a new phenomena, so in terms of mass influence over children (both those of working and sahm) we've got an interesting new dynamic.

And considering 1 in 10 women develop PND I'm hardly unusual with my 'mental health issues' as you so kindly call them. 1 in 10. And those are there reported cases. So 1 in 10 women (at least) will struggle as a SAHM for that reason.

• the

I also think that which you view as harder depends upon how much you enjoy your job and how easy you find bing at home with a child.

My job was challenging and had very long hours. Negotiating around nursery drop offs and nanny or child sickness was an endless stress as I had no family near and was commuting into the city. But being alone at home with a small child and deeply challenging toddler tipped me towards a very dark place.

The notion that one is easier than the other is nonsense as there are a squillion variables

Agreed Pag.

Puds, yes apparently the 1 in 10 figure is just the tip of the iceberg. On the radio last week it was discussed that many women don't self report, mid wives often write off early PND as "just a little baby blues" and GP's are apt to just record and treat physical symptoms.

Oh I can imagine many many things are harder than parenting.

Hard is digging out coal waist deep in water for twelve hours.
Hard is the Friday night shift in A&E.
Hard is telling a mother her child has killed themselves...

Sure there are certain circumstances that make it testing - children with Special Needs, mental health issues - but the general day to day stuff is not the stuff of nightmares. It doesn't require a three sixty watching brief.

Most of us manage to parent successfully. And we do that while working/caring for elderly relatives/volunteering/MNing ...

I find it interesting that it in other cultures, children are seen as a blessing. Something that can only add to the sum of human exitence. Yet the people of those cultures would find it highly odd that parenting was somehting in need of such intensity, viewing it as something one does alongside the rest of ones life.

And bonsoir is correct that well educated women have throughout the 20th century been forced to remain at home. However, they most certainly were not SAHMs in the modern sense.

They were often not involved in the day to day care of their DC. Often not in the same house or even country as them.

I think we should all be respectful of people who find parenting difficult and hard going, whatever their reasons.

In YOUR experience word. Do you know what it's like to suffer with mental health problems?

I'd far rather be knee deep in bastard coal than live with GAD.

amillion I am completetley respectful of people who find anyhting hard. Including parenting.

But I think we need to keep sight of the fact that the specific reasons for that person finding it hard do not make the act hard per se.

But it's the mental health problems, not the parenting, that cause the suffering Mylittlepud. You could do one of those horrible jobs and have mental health problems (as has been the case with many soldiers, historically) and that would surely be even worse than having the mental health problems and looking after children.

And no I don't have specific mental health issues, but there are things in life that I find hard.

And it is important to remember that those are my issues to tackle. Not that those things are just hard per se.

If we say, yes, parenting is dire. It is miserable. It requires every scintilla of energy and intelligence and what have you, then we offer no opportunity for change to the person suffering.

Surely it is better to say, look, right now you are finding it hard. But don't despair. One day you will not feel like this.One day you will be better and then parenting won't be so hard.

And I do think this elevation of motherhood compounds the feelings of inadequacies, thus compounding mental health issues.

If women are being told on all sides that motherhood requires x, y and z, that the smallest thing they do wrong can lead to damage beyond repair, that every moment counts. That it is both the hardest and most important job in the world. Then frankly I think we're setting them up to feel like crap.

"The well educated working class woman is a new phenomena, so in terms of mass influence over children (both those of working and sahm) we've got an interesting new dynamic"

YY and this can only be a good thing.

I recently watched "The Coming Collapse of the Middle Class" by Elizabeth Warren a lecture about the two income trap and the fact that women are now compelled to work although families are actually worse off financially since women entered the workforce on mass.

She doesn't propose that women should stay at home, she is a lawyer and professor but what she does talk about is the fact that capitalism not feminism dictated the rise of female labour in the paid workforce. It services the need for quality low waged workers, more compliant, more flexible, less militant with the requisite skills for modern industry. It also opens up new areas of business never before ploughed for profit and this is badly impacting upon the financial situation of the middle classes. What is happening is a hollowing out where the middle class are dispearing and a huge divide exists between the haves and the have nots. This is why so many women need to work.....their work doesn't replace or supplement male wages because two wages are needed. Men's wages have stagnated and fallen over time. Women have pay parity at the expense of the overall family income.

I think whatever people decide, Work or home, we need to be aware that our choices do impact upon not just us but others and that all work has a social value. I think the other thing is, if women are going to be used as "cheap Labour" or to bring down over all pay rates...as we have, then what are we going to do about it. labour is now talking about only rewarding contracts to businesses that will pay the "living wage" I don't think this will go far enough but is a step in the right direction.

wordfactory, can I just ask whether you have ever stayed at home with your children for any length of time. Also, I dont think you have very many children.
Some women can find themselves in all sorts of situations such as many children, no help, isolated, financially tight, etc.
And some do not have an average IQ.
So that would make parenting hard per se.
Like Pagwatch and puds says, each and everyone is different.
And yes, in some of the situations I have mentioned above, SAHMs have it very hard indeed.

On the whole, I would say, most SAHMs are SAHMs because they are able to be, and enjoy it, and wouldnt choose the alternative.

I agree with Wordfactory.

If you are doing it properly then motherhood is hard regardless of mental health issues (that I reiterate the minimum of one in ten mothers suffer from). I had opinions similar to your Word before I find out what it was actually like. Living hell just about cuts it.

• what it was actually like to suffer with mental health problems.

rewarding doh! awarding.

'If you are doing it properly then motherhood is hard regardless of mental health issues'

No, absolutely not! And I refuse to be told that not finding it hard means I am doing it wrong.
If you find it so it is probably a square peg in a round hole issue.