to think there should be no such thing as a SAHM

[TalkinPeace2]

they might be an ex investment banker
or a part time nurse
or a part time teacher
or an active volunteer in the community
BUT
in these days where most women are educated at least to 18, very few did not work before kids
and very few will not work when their kids are older
so actually should define themselves by their personal achievements - currently undertaking a prolonged break
rather than some sort of domestic - which is what SAHM implies to me.

There is no sisterhood,
there is no brotherhood
we are all equal

I chose not to go back to "work" but have always "worked" part time since I had my DCs - and have never lost sight of who I was before I had them, and who I will be once they leave home.
I do not want to live my life through them.

I don't like it when people define themselves by their academic achievements.
My goal in life is to nurture my growing family, my old job/career was just a way to be able to make it happen.
I like to think others would consider me successful, not career wise but as a mum and partner. I don't measure success as having a good job and loads of money. People have these and are still miserable.
I don't mind SAHM. At least I don't get odd looks anymore, like I did when I worked in Gynae.

[shrug]

Like I said, I don't agree with much of what scottishmummy says.
I just think that if someone attacks sahms then you should challenge that. Responding by being sneery about WOHMs is just childish and results in a ludicrous tit for tat exchange of insults.

I can disagree with what she says without criticising the choices of other mothers.

I don't think sm is saying parenthood has no value, just that the raising of motherhood to some sort of saintly proportions is quite sickening.

The idea that motherhood requires a 24/7 watch. That it is so intense that it can only be properly fullfilled bu those women willing to give up everyhting and concentrate solely on their families is quite frankly a crock.

No one ever sys that about fatherhood.

By all means if you want to give up work then do it. Why not? And if you're fored into that role, then make the best of it, enjoy yourself bien sur...but don't start elevating it to somehting superior, indeed necessary...

My view is that if you put the hours in with them when young, they are much more self reliant and eager to fly the nest later.
I do know some children, whose both parents worked full time in the childrens early years, who,when grown, are rather loathe to leave home. I think that both parents and children are making up for the time lost earlier in their lives.

I agree WordFactory

I also think that after about your 10th thread on relationships where a sahm is being financially bullied or has her DP walk out and is left with no money and no career/job, you start to wish that the decision to be a sahm was talked about in rational, clear headed terms rather than emotional self sacrificing ones.

I can see that Scottish values her job very much and hasn't lost sight of who she is amongst a pile of nappies....good for her. Neither did I when I didn't work. I have just one question though Scottish,in your opinion, what makes a GOOD mother?

Well, this whole discussion makes no sense to me.

I am a SAHM

At this point in my life.

I do not define myself by my job. I have never been defined by my job. As an IT consultant my job did not exacty make people think " ooh, interesting person to talk to." I am never that interested in people's jobs anyway, who is?

A job is just a job, being at home with small kids is just another job ( in that you would have to pay someone else to do it if you did nt do it yourself).

I don't get the SAHM bashing, what the fuck have we done to upset any one? otehr than mentioning precious moments and all that crap. But seriously

Why should it bother YOU how I live MY life? Try to open your mind. There is more than one way of life.

Amillion - I do think that is rubbish. I know squillions of kids who trotted eagerly off to uni this october. Whether their parents worked or not is immaterial. Indeed the vast majority of them will have had two working parents!

I meet lots of different people in all sorts of situations and from all walks of life and I never feel that anyone is judging me. Apart from loons on the Internet and journalists trying to muster up a story do people really care that much??

As someone whose only parent worked Amillon, I can categorically say that's rubbish.

My two best mates had sahm and both stayed at the local Uni. I went to the other side of country and then onto other side of world.

Don't think that necessarily means anything about our respective parenting. Anecdotal evidence rarely does, I find.

I am going by what I have seen.
If others have seen differently, then fair enough.

Its the only job i have ever been proud of i dont give a fig about being a ex i am not trying to impress anyone and dont care if other think all i ever been is a "mother"

Because my kids will tell you i am so much more :)

My family makes me whole

A job simply pays the bills

My family AND my job are both PART of what makes me a 'whole' or well rounded human being Fishwife.

My career doesn't only pay the bills it gives me a great deal of intellectual and personal satisfaction.

As do my friends, my writing and research, my social activities, my hobbies...

One thing can't make me whole. Motherhood won't suddenly make me a whole person, as if I've been missing something before. It takes the whole myriad of my life to make me feel happy and satisfied.

Some children flourish whatever early years provision they have.
But I also know children whose parents both work and who struggle both socially and emotionally.
I do think for some kids there is a correlation between their early years provision and behaviour/emotional problems.
One of my friends had a nightmare wrt childcare...she had not one but 2 childminders give her less than a week notice due to family problems/issues and each time had to find childcare for her children at very short notice.
I know she felt very pressured and in one case made a decision she deeply regretted.
I am very thankful I have never had to be in that position.
When I did go back to work - briefly before I became pg with ds2 - I felt totally torn. When ds1 was ill I stayed at home with him but felt I was letting my colleagues down. It was horrid. I am glad I don't have that issue anymore.
I think I will go back to work at some point.
I hope so.
But I will no more define myself by whatever job I do then than by the fact I am a sahm now.
Am definately going to put "feckless layabout" on the next form I have to fill in! :)

I agree with Amillion,, I think and it is backed up by some research, research that is not completely unbiased though! that children do indeed benefit from one full time carer in their formative years. A child who grows up into a well rounded adult will not have suffered separation anxiety or attachment disorder.

When Bowlby published his research after the second world war he was cheered on by men and politicians because his research said "Mum is best to care" put mum back in the kitchen and let the boys back in the factory. Many feminists of the shoulder pad brigade want to denigrate these findings but in recent years more research into childhood has shown that children can suffer attachment disorders where the child has failed to make a bond with one constant care giver. Of course playing pass the baby between nursery staff and parents does not allow for a very young baby/child to form an attachment to one constant care giver. Some children are confused because the routines and boundaries, expectations and dialectic in communication is different in different place and with different care givers.

By all means sub contract but don't denigrate those who choose not to.

lol,outsource that's a mn cracker,actually psychiatric research shows is the consistency of care
the availability of regard,emotional availability,reprocicity is pivotal in attachment
it's not a time served done 6hr done=attached child.it's qualitative parenting rather than quantitative parenting

The causes of attachment disorder are

A baby cries and no one responds or offers comfort.
A baby is hungry or wet, and they aren?t attended to for hours.
No one looks at, talks to, or smiles at the baby, so the baby feels alone.
A young child gets attention only by acting out or displaying other extreme behaviors.
A young child or baby is mistreated or abused.
Sometimes the child?s needs are met and sometimes they aren?t. The child never knows what to expect.
The infant or young child is hospitalized or separated from his or her parents.
A baby or young child is moved from one caregiver to another (can be the result of adoption, foster care, or the loss of a parent).
The parent is emotionally unavailable because of depression, an illness, or a substance abuse problem.

If you can ensure that none of the above deficits will occur when the baby/child is being cared for in a nursery setting over an extended period of time/hrs then fine. But in my experience nursery workers are usually young, lack education, some even lack basic GCSEs, often from poorer disadvantaged backgrounds. Having visited nurseries and having worked with children (teaching maths and looked after children LA) the very worst care givers are usually young, with few qualifications, lack good role models themselves and are not particularly motivated. That goes for parents as well as nursery staff.

I don't think that one is doing a lot of parenting when one's children are at school (or otherwise taken care of by others - I was delighted to dispose of my children to a fantastic three-week long summer camp this year and will be equally delighted to do so next year). However, there are many other features of life as a family that don't constitute parenting that can be more easily achieved when children are not around. And it is also perfectly legitimate to pursue one's own interests for part of one's time, be they remunerated or not, self-serving or serving others.

What is crucial is to ensure that any person or institution to whom one outsources care and education of children does so to acceptable standards. Not everyone lives in a place where it is easy to find outsourcing solutions that are of an acceptable standard and an affordable price (acceptable and affordable being, of course, subjective criteria).

I also think certain posters may be subconsciously worried about their choices. I am SAHM and part time student (10 to 16 hrs a week). I have also been f\t WOHM, my eldest was in full time childcare 40 hrs a week. I gave up with second DC for several reasons. Main one that job expected me to put the job before my kids if they were ill or had no childcare etc. They actually said as much. I wanted to put my kids first.

Next one that DH changed from 9 to 5 job Mon to Fri to working away 12 months and then rotating shifts inc nights and weird hours changing last minute. So I had to be home in practical terms as my job also was shifts and nights\Christmas day etc. Luckily after initial adjustment I loved it! Further down the line we had several awful pregnancy losses; two very late. After that I could never have left DC when babies. It was just different. Every minute seemed precious as I was so grateful for them after multiple pregnancy issues where I almost lost them late in the pregnancy the same as I lost the others. Luckily I had the choice to do so (SAH) as DH now earned more than we both did previously. It also gives me chance to change career, study and volunteer. In addition DH never has to worry about taking time off when kids are ill etc.

I don't judge WOHM and am glad if they are happy doing so. If they judge me, so be it. I wonder if those who do though are maybe jealous deep down at a subconscious level?

attachment disorder is psychiatric illness,both biochemical and social in origin
it isn't associated with parental employment.it's to do with reprocicity and regard
the ability to consistently,and genuinely respond to emotional needs.

The last time that anyone that I didn't know asked me what I did for a living - outside of an actual job related/professional conversation - I got a bit miffed, tbh. I may have replied with: "Dinosaur wrangler!" Nosy beggars

scottishmummy - you are correct to say that attachment disorder is not correlated to parental employment. It is, however, correlated to parental absence (which may or may not arise as a consequence of parental employment).

mini,a good mother is emotionally available,warm,caring,consistent and content
good enough mother is something we all strive for,some attain.some don't.
illness,stress can impede ability to be good enough parent

a good mother can be achieved in number of modalities eg work,study,housewife,volunteer etc. we all have strong preferences associated with class,our own experiences,finances,culture

my v strong preference us to work ft,and that's what I do.I think it's the right thing to do,and works for us

Yes it is to do with ^reprocicity and regard
the ability to consistently,and genuinely respond to emotional needs^ but my point is that it isn't always easy to ensure response to crying, or response to needs, genuine warmth and regard unless you stand over the care givers! all the time your child is in their care.

I used to work with looked after children, I can assure you that NOT all staff have your child's best interests at heart. Those that do, it isn't consistent.