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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder why so many honour killings happen in Islamic countries when Islam preaches peace?

999 replies

Mooblies · 02/11/2012 21:11

Also, how could a parent who loves their child consider killing them for honour, or do the people that commit them not really love their children?

OP posts:
PosieParker · 13/11/2012 17:05

cresent

What is the meaning of your post?

PosieParker · 13/11/2012 17:08

Argh not cultural relativism again, yawn. People fighting injustices against women in these religious communities DO NOT excuse bad practices with cultural relativism, why do you patronise them so much as to think anyone should? Wrong is wrong, whether wrapped in a hijab, a boden tee or habit.

mathanxiety · 13/11/2012 17:17

The specific Pauline injunctions wrt authority of men over women, women covering their heads, etc., are seen as elements of cultural baggage. Since Vatican II the passage has been used in context with others (on marriage, for instance) as one revealing the relationship of people to God, rather than primarily revealing how relationships of people with each other should be conducted. The emphasis has also shifted from the minutiae of head covering to the bigger picture.

The salient passages that provide context in which to interpret Cor 11 are Mt 9:15, and also Jn 3:29, where Jesus speaks of himself as a bridegroom. The Church is the bride. The fact that the wedding feast at Cana was the scene of the first miracle is significant because of this God and church relationship echoing marriage. Developing the bridegroom idea further, this particular 'bridegroom' gave his life for the 'bride'.

A further context is the injunction against dissenting groups within the church (a few chapters on in Cor 1). There is a focus on order that can really only be interpreted in the context of dissention and the existence of factions within the Corinthian church, which is told to get its act together. Paul uses the 'natural' order that existed within society as an example of how people should view their relation to God. This particular overall context is the formation of a concept of Church authority that led to the supremacy of the papacy (with the bishop of Rome as first among equals).

The fulfillment of the promises of the Old Testament is offered in the New Testament. This includes an end to the disharmony and strife of the Adam and Eve relationship. A new model is put forth, based on love, with God and the church as examples.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

' Equality and difference willed by God
(369) Man and woman have been created, which is to say, willed by God: on the one hand, in perfect equality as human persons; on the other, in their respective beings as man and woman. "Being man" or "being woman" is a reality which is good and willed by God: man and woman possess an inalienable dignity which comes to them immediately from God their Creator. Man and woman are both with one and the same dignity "in the image of God". In their "being-man" and "being-woman", they reflect the Creator's wisdom and goodness.

(370) In no way is God in man's image. He is neither man nor woman. God is pure spirit in which there is no place for the difference between the sexes. But the respective "perfections" of man and woman reflect something of the infinite perfection of God: those of a mother and those of a father and husband.'

.. further along ...

' The Church - instituted by Christ Jesus
(763) It was the Son's task to accomplish the Father's plan of salvation in the fullness of time. Its accomplishment was the reason for his being sent. "The Lord Jesus inaugurated his Church by preaching the Good News, that is, the coming of the Reign of God, promised over the ages in the scriptures." To fulfill the Father's will, Christ ushered in the Kingdom of heaven on earth. The Church "is the Reign of Christ already present in mystery."

(764) "This Kingdom shines out before men in the word, in the works and in the presence of Christ." To welcome Jesus' word is to welcome "the Kingdom itself." The seed and beginning of the Kingdom are the "little flock" of those whom Jesus came to gather around him, the flock whose shepherd he is. They form Jesus' true family. To those whom he thus gathered around him, he taught a new "way of acting" and a prayer of their own.

(765) The Lord Jesus endowed his community with a structure that will remain until the Kingdom is fully achieved. Before all else there is the choice of the Twelve with Peter as their head. Representing the twelve tribes of Israel, they are the foundation stones of the new Jerusalem. The Twelve and the other disciples share in Christ's mission and his power, but also in his lot. By all his actions, Christ prepares and builds his Church.

(766) The Church is born primarily of Christ's total self-giving for our salvation, anticipated in the institution of the Eucharist and fulfilled on the cross. "The origin and growth of the Church are symbolized by the blood and water which flowed from the open side of the crucified Jesus." "For it was from the side of Christ as he slept the sleep of death upon the cross that there came forth the 'wondrous sacrament of the whole Church.'" As Eve was formed from the sleeping Adam's side, so the Church was born from the pierced heart of Christ hanging dead on the cross.'

..and further along again..

' The Church - mystery of men's union with God

(772) It is in the Church that Christ fulfills and reveals his own mystery as the purpose of God's plan: "to unite all things in him." St. Paul calls the nuptial union of Christ and the Church "a great mystery." Because she is united to Christ as to her bridegroom, she becomes a mystery in her turn. Contemplating this mystery in her, Paul exclaims: "Christ in you, the hope of glory."

(773) In the Church this communion of men with God, in the "love [that] never ends," is the purpose which governs everything in her that is a sacramental means, tied to this passing world. "[The Church's] structure is totally ordered to the holiness of Christ's members. And holiness is measured according to the 'great mystery' in which the Bride responds with the gift of love to the gift of the Bridegroom." Mary goes before us all in the holiness that is the Church's mystery as "the bride without spot or wrinkle." This is why the "Marian" dimension of the Church precedes the "Petrine." '

Obv this is the Catholic Church catechism here, which is not subscribed to by the CofE, etc.

FreudiansSlipper · 13/11/2012 17:21

posie you seem such an expert of knowing what goes on in these communities so what do you know that goes on?

PosieParker · 13/11/2012 17:35

As an activist I only know about people I come into contact with and so they will be agencies and charities that look to end violence against women and girls.

What did you want to know?

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 13/11/2012 18:05

math
The Catechism of the Catholic church can interpret the bible as it wishes but it doesn't change what the words actually say. I am a lapsed catholic and have very clear views on the patriachal nature of the Catholic church. Just because 2000 years later the vatican decide to interpret the bible differently doesn't mean they are correctly reflecting what the author at the time meant but just a modern acceptable reading of something that no longer fits.

The fatwa you quoted is is not binding on anyone but just an interpretatation. It demonstrates the mindset of the author and their interpretation of what the Qu'ran means, they may be right they may be wrong but a fatwa from a single scholar does not represently all muslim thought any more than an interpretation by an christian scholar would represent the thoughts of all christians.

crescentmoon · 13/11/2012 18:07

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

crescentmoon · 13/11/2012 18:23

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PosieParker · 13/11/2012 18:27

Ah but cresent no such enlightenment or reformation has occurred in Islam, unlike the Christian church.

PosieParker · 13/11/2012 18:27

Besides what did you mean with the other post?

FreudiansSlipper · 13/11/2012 18:34

you are an activist do you work within domestic violence? empowering women?

have you have any form of counselling training?

what is it you actually do

mathanxiety · 13/11/2012 18:44

It's not in the least convoluted, CrescentMoon.

I don't think you understand the difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament. The New Testament supercedes the Old, with the Old Testament comprising the promise and teh New Testament representing the promise fulfilled. That is why Christianity is called Christianity and not Judaism Part II.

Chaz what the Bible's words actually say is what the RC Church says they say, if you are a Catholic. One of the key themes of Reformation thought was the cutting out of the middle man so to speak, the assertion of freedom for protestants to decide for themselves what the Bible says (to interpret the Bible for themselves basically). The RC Church retained its teaching authority hence the importance of the Catechism.

crescentmoon · 13/11/2012 18:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Silibilimili · 13/11/2012 18:53

posie, how do you know no such enlightenment has occurred?! Only in hindsight we will know this.

mathanxiety · 13/11/2012 18:56

Not so fast there wrt the fatwa:

The Islamic Supreme Council of America site:

'We might compare a fatwā to the legal ruling of a high court or the Supreme Court, depending on the authority of the mufti behind it. However, a fatwā is not binding as is the verdict of the secular courts; while correct and applicable to all members of the Muslim faith, the fatwā is optional for the individual to respect or not.

[as opposed to the binding power of a civil court ruling, observing a fatwa is up to the conscience of the believer]

A qaļā, on the other hand, is a legal ruling made by a judge (qādī) that, issued in a nation where Islamic law is observed, is binding on those to whom it is dealt. Usually issued to resolve a legal dispute, a qaļā may be based on a fatwā, yet it applies only to the individuals or groups named in the ruling and no one else. A ruler can impose a qaļā on his entire nation.

Although there is no central Islamic governing authority today ? the last having been dismantled with the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, there are generally accepted standards for granting anyone the authority to issue a fatwā. This is an extremely rigorous standard requiring many years of training and study. The fatwā is not based upon the mufti?s own will and ideas, but rendered in accordance with fixed precedents from the sources of Islamic law.

In order to issue an authorized fatwā using his individual skills of reasoning, the mufti or scholar must meet the standards of ijtihād. This is the highest standard in issuing a juristic ruling. In general, this means he must be able to distinguish between the other scholars? positions and their supporting evidence, and judge one stronger according to the strength or weakness of the evidence.'

So a fatwa, while not binding in the way the ruling of a civil court is binding, is actually 'correct and applicable to all members of the Muslim faith' assuming the issuer complies with the conditions that are in place to ensure authority is in place.

Further on -- 'It often happens that different Islamic clerics issue contradictory, or competing, fatwās. This divergence of opinion is not considered an issue in Islam; in fact, a well-known saying states that such differences among scholars are God?s mercy, for they allow for different conditions and temperaments among people.

In nations that observe Islamic law, fatwās are debated before being issued publicly. They are affirmed only by consensus, which is determined by the supreme religious council of that nation. In such cases, fatwās are rarely contradictory, and carry the power of enforceable law. If two fatwās do contradict one another, the ruling bodies (which often combine civil and religious law) establish a compromise. This differs in the Shi¿a tradition, which demands that each individual Muslim choose one mufti (marja¿) to follow exclusively in all aspects of religious law.

In nations that do not recognize Islamic law, Muslims confronted with competing fatwās would follow the ruling of the scholar observing their same religious tradition. If two muftis of the same tradition issue conflicting fatwās, a Muslim may choose between them. In practice however, following a particular school is not strictly observed.

These are the requirements for a scholar or religious leader to issue a fatwā that is recognized under Islamic law. Having established this, we may now consider whether fatwās issued by militants, including the many we have read in the past five years, have any authority. Again, the worldwide media has repeatedly presented cases in which known Muslim militants use a fatwā to either declare war or announce another violent action.

However, unless he who makes the declaration is extremely well-educated and trained in Islamic jurisprudence according to the requirements mentioned above, he has no authority to issue a fatwā. The Prophet Muhammad (s) said, ?Whoever gives fatwā without knowledge, the angels of the heaven and the earth curse him." Second, if he is so qualified, the fatwā remains non-binding, applying only to those choose to accept and wish to enforce it.'

SO it can be accepted or not accepted -- it is not binding individually but applicable to all Muslims, along the lines of 'your mission, should you choose to accept it...'. However, a fatwa has to be completely grounded in Islamic tradition, the Koran, etc., and those issuing them have to be properly qualified. I think it can be inferred therefore that a fatwa carries much more weight than your dismissive paragraph implies, Chaz.

mathanxiety · 13/11/2012 18:57

Sorry about all the numbers....

mathanxiety · 13/11/2012 19:02

How about the fact that you have a talent for obfuscation, CrescentMoon?

Maybe you would like to debate your interpretation of the phrase 'correct and applicable to all members of the Muslim faith' with the Islamic Supreme Council of America?

Silibilimili · 13/11/2012 19:05

cresent,

  1. peaceful non political muslim countries like UAE, Qatar, Malaysia, Indonesia etc etc are ignored. Hellish places like Afghanistan, fronteer Pakistan erc are focused on to represent the entire Muslim population.
  2. If you get angry as a Muslim, you are an angry Muslim fundamentalist. If not, whatever these idiots are writing on this is thread is true. Even though they would not set foot in a country like Dubai which has no history (really?!).(history is only considered history if you build churches etc, contribution to mathematics etc dont count).
mathanxiety · 13/11/2012 19:17

What a load of bollocks. Where are you getting your cock eyed notions of 'history' from?

Saudi Arabia is a peaceful place. It is also hellish if you are a woman with no taste for submission, or for hiding your entire body under a big black robe if you venture forth, or if you want to wear nail polish, or drive a car, or up to recently, vote (they will have to wait until 2015 though).

SA is also dominated by the Wahhabis, who have spread their influence to Afghanistan and Pakistan and into Africa -- basically anywhere there isn't a strong government able to take them on. Egypt and Libya have had a taste of fundamentalism on the rise since the fall of Mubarak and Ghaddafi.

PosieParker · 13/11/2012 19:19

Is that the same Malaysia and Indonesia where some of the highest rates of honour killings occur?

Silibilimili · 13/11/2012 19:20

Oh a few more:

All brown skin cultures are misogynistic.

Forget about the fact that women only for the vote in the west in the last century.

Wearing bikinis on a beach in a Muslim country is considered progressive.

All brown skinned men who did great things for humanity are bastards.

PosieParker · 13/11/2012 19:21

Who said Dubai has no history?

Ethnocentric, implies ethnicity.....noone on this thread has stated what ethnicity they are.

Actually more accurate sum up is that most people of faith are so defensive about their faith that they cannot see the wood from the trees.

Thank Goodness there is no God.

And of course you can see enlightenment, there is no movement!

What do I do? I petition, I attend and I engage.

PosieParker · 13/11/2012 19:22

Sili.... What a ludicrous post.

Who the fuck even mentioned skin colour?

Are you always this dim?

mathanxiety · 13/11/2012 19:26

Silibili, there is a difference between basing a racist judgement on skin colour and basing an opinion of a religion on its fatwas (which are amply recorded, and applicable to all Muslims if issued by a proper authority, as defined by the Islamic Supreme Council of America, see above).

'All brown skinned men who did great things for humanity are bastards.'
Please provide some evidence for this deeply silly assertion of yours.

mathanxiety · 13/11/2012 19:26

x post there...

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