Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder why so many honour killings happen in Islamic countries when Islam preaches peace?

999 replies

Mooblies · 02/11/2012 21:11

Also, how could a parent who loves their child consider killing them for honour, or do the people that commit them not really love their children?

OP posts:
Brycie · 12/11/2012 23:33

This ssertion that if something is not in the Koran, it is not Islamic, but cultural. Is that the idea.

Nailak: you said the issue would be the same in a gurdwara. I agree.

Cotedazr"Fascinating that you can give this example and still think honor killings are part of Islam although they are not sanctioned by the Quran."

I don't think it's part of Islam, I think it's connected, because some Musims justify it through their faith and through the honour principle.

I think some people should stop being so rude and patronising, it's not very nice.

Do you think "culture informed by religious belief"does not e exist?

Brycie · 12/11/2012 23:38

"Its far to simplistic to just point the finger at any one religion. "

Chaz: nobody is.

Brycie · 12/11/2012 23:38

Posie has never said it is all to do with religion. You know that.

Brycie · 12/11/2012 23:45

Posie, excellent points there with much truth.

Nailak, there was one post which I can't quote where you gave a lengthy explanation of what you have tried to do and what works/doesn't work and why. Thanks for that. The comments that "honour killers don't listen to imams" - yes I see that. But isn't it more than that - isn't it a groundswell of opinion that all Muslims can contribute to. That's how things change.

I understand that honour attacks are increasing within Hindu and Muslim communities, unless it's that they are recognised and reported more for what they are. I'd certainly never seen acid attacks reported until this year, while they're a relatively common assault in India.

Beachcomber · 12/11/2012 23:45

I think Silibilimili might be mixing you up with me Brycie. (When this poster asked you if you were 'Beech' upthread).

Brycie · 12/11/2012 23:49

Oh hi have we "met"? Your name is familar. You are welcome to join me in the stocks. Apparently we argue in the same way so I guess you're a person of great cogency and clarity of thought Smile

Beachcomber · 13/11/2012 00:02

Hi Brycie - not sure if we have met (don't have a good memory). I have been taking a break from MN, but I just happened to read this thread because the topic interests me. Silibilimili and I were on a thread together a while back that touched on honour killing and IIRC I quoted an article from the Guardian.

I might be wrong though, Silibilimili could be referring to someone else altogether.

I like to think I'm a reasonably clear sort of poster Grin.

mathanxiety · 13/11/2012 00:41

A very interesting fatwa (#1105) from Shaykh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid:

' Those who say that Islam is the religion of equality are lying against Islam. Rather Islam is the religion of justice which means treating equally those who are equal and differentiating between those who are different.

No one who knows the religion of Islam would say that it is the religion of equality. Rather what shows you that this principle is false is the fact that most of what is mentioned in the Qur?aan denies equality' (Quoting another Shaukh, Ibn 'Uthaymeen)

'... There are matters in which men and women are treated differently in Islamic sharee?ah, such as:

1 ? Qiwaamah (being in charge of the household)

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

?Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allaah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means?

[al-Nisa? 4:34]

Ibn Katheer (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

?Allaah says ?Men are the protectors and maintainers of women? meaning that the man is in charge of the woman, i.e., he is the leader and head of the household, the one who disciplines her if she goes astray.

?because Allaah has made one of them to excel the other? i.e., because men are superior to women and are better than women. Hence Prophethood was given only to men, as was the position of khaleefah, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, ?No people shall ever prosper who appoint a woman as their ruler.? This was narrated by al-Bukhaari from the hadeeth of ?Abd al-Rahmaan ibn Abi Bakrah from his father. The same applies to the position of qaadi (judge), etc.

?and because they spend (to support them) from their means? refers to the mahr and the spending on women?s maintenance that Allaah has enjoined upon men in His Book and in the Sunnah of His Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). So a man is inherently better than a woman, and he is superior to her because he spends on her. So it is appropriate that he should be in charge of her, as Allaah says, ?but men have a degree (of responsibility) over them? [al-Baqarah 2:228].

?Ali ibn Abi Talhah said, narrating from Ibn ?Abbaas: ?Men are the protectors and maintainers of women? means that men are the leaders of women and they should obey them in areas where Allaah has enjoined obedience. Obedience may mean treating his family kindly and protecting his wealth.?

And so on and so forth (it is really very circular reasoning, along the lines of 'this is how it appears to us in the full flight of our arrogance and misogyny, and therefore this is how it is') it is really a very frustrating read, I must say.

'Conclusion: [finally]

Women are like men in some aspects and they differ from them in others. Most of the rulings of Islam apply to men and women equally. In cases where a distinction is made between the sexes, the Muslim regards that as a mercy from Allaah and a sign of His knowledge of His creation, but the arrogant kaafir sees it as oppression and injustice, so he stubbornly insists on claiming that men and women are the same. So let him tell us how a man can carry a foetus and breastfeed it? He stubbornly ignores the weakness of women and how they bleed during their monthly period, and he stubbornly beat his head against the rock of reality. But the Muslim is still at peace with his faith, surrendering to the command of Allaah.'

And that is why women are killed by Muslim families for 'dishonouring' them.

Brycie · 13/11/2012 00:49

I'll look out for you in future and check!

Well I probably won't get back to this thread before it fills up, so thanks Posy for being nice and being clear, thanks to Math for the information, thanks to Nailak and frontpaw for being polite too.

Brycie · 13/11/2012 00:53

Math I didn't see that before I posted. You've been a fund of information. I linked to a similar speech earlier where honour kiings were specifically said to be justified I don't think anyone read it

PosieParker · 13/11/2012 06:59

How do get to that nailik?

And people question my intelligence when so many people twist my posts. I said "honour" wasn't something atheists recognised, not that atheists don't commit domestic violence. It certainly isn't the motivation, hence we don't have named "honour killings" we have murder or crimes of passion as they used to be known.

PosieParker · 13/11/2012 07:04

I think that, Math, is what I was saying all along. NOT that there is a directive by Islam to get men to kill women but that it fundamentally promotes men as superior.

PosieParker · 13/11/2012 07:06

Silly, Freud and Cote, I truly hope you have a more polite way of conducting a discussion, I can't remember a discussion on MN with such venomous and personal snipes, including constantly questioning people's intelligence and passive aggressive emoticons. Really a rather poor show.

Frontpaw · 13/11/2012 07:27

Thank you Brycie!

We wont get far unless we listen to others' views and try to put our own thoughts, questions and theories out there with civility and an open mind. I hope everyone has learned something from here and questions assumptions in themselves and others. We won't progress as a species unless we evolve our thinking.

RosemaryHoyt · 13/11/2012 07:35

Brycie, surely it is more religious belief informed by culture and therein lies the problem. I agree a number of Muslim men use religion as a reason for DV.

The general themes of little woman needs protection from big strong man, but watch out she's fitna and if she steps out of line she needs discipline are widespread in he attitudes of such perpetrators.

The perpetrators are backed up by enough written authorities to justify their actions. "a light beating" being the final step if wifely discipline. I cannot agree that it a spouse's place to 'discipline' their partner like an errant child.

Part of the problem is shoehorning 1400 year old doctrine into the present day.

The main problem as I see it is this: men as the providers and rulers are under incredible and wholly ridiculous pressure to provide. They simply can't, there aren't many places where 2 family incomes aren't necessary. The pressure builds. The perpetrator's women are blamed. I need to develop this a bit as clearly culture plays a part. Culture ALWAYS plays a part, we all originate from somewhere.

RosemaryHoyt · 13/11/2012 07:42

Also, if you have a faith that is your foundation, has brought you joy and provides a basis for your life, you want to take it on wholesale. When irreconcilable bits are presented to you, it feels uncomfortable, when your beliefs don't fit with your values. So you defend your beliefs trying to reconcile them with your values. And they unpalatable parts of the faith are perversely allowed to continue by their justification.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 13/11/2012 08:23

Brycie
It appeared to me that the OP was trying to argue a clear link between Islam and honour killings - hence my comment.

PosieParker · 13/11/2012 08:26

There is a clear link, just like there's a clear link between the pornification of our culture and sexual violence.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 13/11/2012 08:33

Posie

As you have already pointed out Abrahamic faiths support the patriarchy rather than only Islam. Lets face it St Paul was hardly a campaigner for women's rights was he.

"1 Corinthians 11

3: But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Any man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, 5: but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled dishonors her head -- it is the same as if her head were shaven. 6: For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her wear a veil. 7: For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8: (For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. 9: Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.) 10: That is why a woman ought to have a veil on her head, because of the angels. 11: (Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man nor man of woman; 12: for as woman was made from man, so man is now born of woman. And all things are from God.) "

I think its pretty clear that St Paul sees men as superior to women too.

Brycie · 13/11/2012 08:33

My last post (I hope!)

Posie I shouldn't worry about yr intelligence being questioned by some people, I'd take it as compliment. Failure to understand a complex idea.

It's not as clear as religion informed by culture or culture informed by religion. Both exist, entangled; where peoples move around they can carry a culture with them and justify that with religious belief. Religious belief can uphold or challenge a culture. To say there's no link is absurd as to say that to be Muslim is a necessary and sufficient condition to carry out an honour killing and to carry out an honour killing is a necessary and sufficient condition to be a Muslim. Both are wrong (obviously). The relationship is intertwined. To insist there's no link with Islam because "it's not in the Qran" is absurd. (as math demonstrates above)

See y'all.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 13/11/2012 08:36

Posie

Sorry I phrased my earlier remark badly
I think the OP was trying to show that there was only a clear link between Islam and honour killings whereas the problem is much wider. There are plenty of Islamic countries where honour killings don't happen so to suggest that honour killings are only driven by one religion is to miss all the other factors that are at play.

crescentmoon · 13/11/2012 08:39

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Brycie · 13/11/2012 08:40

Sorry one more: Chaz: there are statistics showing that most honour killings are carried out "by Muslims"/ "within the Muslim community"/ whatever. Having experience of south Asia I find this quite difficult to believe but that could be where part of the perception comes from.

Silibilimili · 13/11/2012 12:13

Hello beech! Nice to see you again!

Here is the link to the thread where we met.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1511908-Ghandi-Aung-San-Su-Kiy-and-other-arseholes

-

cresent, please can you rephrase what you mean by your last post?

I am not Muslim. I have felt that some of the posters on here have been very patronising and rude. There is also a lack of willingness to understand the 'cultures'.

The Muslims however have responded with great openness and patience to repeatedly answer the same thing in different ways.

Being a non Muslim I have felt offended.

I still think educating of women and therefore empowerment of women is the key to a solution. We have seen this work in Hindus and Sikhs.

Beachcomber · 13/11/2012 13:53

Hello Silibilimili. Yes, it was that thread that I had in mind.