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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU to be absolutely horrified by this way of thinking?

185 replies

WantsToBeFree · 20/10/2012 17:36

The YouTube video above has some interesting views on "birth rape", which have scared me a bit to be honest. This guy appears to think that when a woman walks into a hospital to give birth, she has given implied consent to any examination or procedure that they may decide to perform on her. If she isn't agreeable, then she should just deliver the baby alone, at home.

WHAT?!?!?!

I understand that for some obvious things there is consent (the doctor will have to touch the genitals while guiding the baby out etc.) , but there is no implied consent for forceps, ventouse, episiotomies and c sections! These are serious procedures which can only be performed after the necessity has been explained to the mother and her consent has been obtained. Only in a minuscule proportion of cases would there be a situation where the doctor doesn't even have 2 minutes to at least get verbal consent.

And yes, I do think that even though we don't have medical degrees we have the final say in what does or doesn't happen to our bodies. I also think that it isn't unreasonable for a woman to feel violated if a procedure was performed on her without her express consent during the delivery or if her dignity and modesty were disregarded.

I think most of us realise that childbirth is unpredictable and involves intimate exposure. However, this doesn't mean that the healthcare professionals can treat us however they want and that we have to give them a carte blanche to do what they please.

I am stupefied that people (who claim to be liberals) actually think that way. Interestingly, these are the same guys who were furious when the transvaginal ultrasound was made mandatory for women seeking abortions in an American state and they called it "government sanctioned rape". Well, if the doctor can't put an ultrasound probe in my fanjo without my consent, why do they think it's Ok for him/her to put in a pair of forceps without my consent or worse, against my consent?

Even liberals are misogynistic when it comes to childbirth....

OP posts:
5madthings · 20/10/2012 23:15

And what easily and wants to be free just said.

I refused vaginal exams from one dr with ds3, i did NOT put my baby at risk in any way!

pigletmania · 20/10/2012 23:16

True true I am guessing my judgement is clouded, I think assault might be better term though

pigletmania · 20/10/2012 23:18

Reading others bad experiences on here does put it into perspectve

SchrodingersMew · 20/10/2012 23:20

But if it wasn't a Dr putting his hand (or instrument) inside you without consent it would be rape.

Why is it lesser simply because the person has a title? Hmm

5madthings · 20/10/2012 23:23

Assault would be the term.that i would use personally and that is the term i have used on this thread.

I not sure what the legal definition of rape is but it does cover the use of objects rather than just a penis? So i can see why some women feel like it us rape.

SomersetONeil · 20/10/2012 23:24

Calling it 'assault' doesn't change anything, but yes, I suppose it does make it more palatable...

SchrodingersMew · 20/10/2012 23:25

Assault would be the term I would personally use too but I think that is probably wrong by definition in certain circumstances.

And yes, I believe it does now cover objects.

KnittingZombie · 20/10/2012 23:35

At the end of a long and difficult first labour, throughout which I wasn't listened to by many health professionals, a doctor (and crowd of other people) walked into the room and shoved a pair of forceps up me and ripped my baby out without even introducing herself, let alone explaining what was happening or getting consent. She even asked someone else, not me, why is she screaming, she's had an epidural hasn't she? I felt so violated after the whole thing and I believe it contributed to me getting Pnd. It certainly wasn't rape, but it was an intimate violation by a person in a position of responsibility when I was very vulnerable.

5madthings · 20/10/2012 23:38

To me using an instrument/hand without consent def fits the description of rape. I guesd i am thinking of the intent behind it and in rape that is sexual? Tho actually sometimes its just about power and control? One would hope that a drs intent would always be for the good? But that may not always be the case sadly. Rape/asssault is down to terminology, BOTH are a violation and both are wrong whether done medically or not. Consent is a fundamental right.

5madthings · 20/10/2012 23:40

knitting to.me that would be rape/assault and i am sorry you had that experience :(

Original poster
WantsToBeFree · 20/10/2012 23:52

5Madthings

I agree- I would classify it as rape.

As a side note, it's always made me very skeptical to hear about stories where a "group" of people walk into the delivery room- I can understand needing an obstetrician, a midwife and a paediatrician( in some cases), maybe an anaesthesiologist and a helper nurse but I've never understood why they need to have close to ten people in there. I have a feeling they just bring in a bunch of HCPs who want to "observe" a complicated birth for their own professional experience and justify it by saying they need to be there "just in case". Of course, there is scant regard for how intimidated or humiliated a woman may feel to have so many people in the room while she is in such an exposed and vulnerable state.

OP posts:
KnittingZombie · 20/10/2012 23:58

Thanks 5madthings. It took a while but I got past it. I wonder if doctors just become desensitised and only see what needs to be done and forget about the emotional side of things, and as someone upthread put it, the woman attached to the vagina! There may be some malicious and power hungry people out there who enjoy such domination, but I think in my case the doctor just saw the baby who needed to come and forgot that I was patient, I was exhausted and scared and should have had my options explained to me.

Sorry, it's a bit late for me to be coherent, but I think there's a point In there somewhere. I guess that for me there is a difference between assault with the intent to sexually violate, and careless, thoughtless assault where the intent is far from violation but the result is the same.

5madthings · 21/10/2012 00:03

That was exacyly my experience with ds3 i was an 'intetesting case' for a variety if reasons (none that posed any problems to me or baby) and so drs wanted to be involved! I happily allowed the student who came and introduced themselves and politely asked if they could watch :).but nit the arsehole dr who was rude, patronising and tried to ride rough shod over me!

Again with ds4 and with dd i happily allowed students, they were polite, listened to my requests that they sit quietly and let me get on and labour etc. I was happy to have students there, providing they ask, introduce themsrlves and are polite and respectful!

Posterofapombear · 21/10/2012 00:05

A dr shoved my DD back inside me without warning with no painkillers. I'm not sure how I could have been more raped.

5madthings · 21/10/2012 00:09

You make a good point knitting and you are coherent. I would also hope that most drs are trying to do.the right thing and simply forget to stop and think if the woman! But the point us they shouldnt forget, they need to stop and explain and get consent! Even uf they only gave time to say 'its an emergrncy i need to do a c section/forceps etc now please' and then they should debrief the woman afyerwards and help her to understand what happened/was done etc.

But to walk in and not even say their name and what they were doing beggars belief. Maybw it was a medical emergency but 10seconds to say their name and what is going on as they prepare themselves and instrumentd etc is not too much to ask!

Original poster
WantsToBeFree · 21/10/2012 00:12

5Madthings

Exactly, they need to ask first!! And if she says no, then they need to get the hell out of the room.
I have had some traumatic experiences in my childhood which involved inappropriate sexual behaviour from relatives and a family doctor. Therefore, I am a very private person when it comes to my body. I would never allow a student in the room- for me it would be a strict policy of "essential personnel only". Every woman is different and has different requirements and opinions. It is their duty and their job to work accordingly, not to just do what they please.

OP posts:
SaggyOldClothCatPuss · 21/10/2012 00:19

Not in labour, but at just over 40 weeks, I saw a consultant, for examination and to discuss induction. I was 21, and had read everything, but had no idea what a sweep was, or that the he performed one on me, until I read about the procedure here and put 2 and 2 together. It was incredibly painful, and when I complained, he just shrugged.
At no point was I consulted, or had it explained to me. What makes matters worse is that he was later suspended, "following concerns over the standard of his work, conduct and attitude to his patients." Sad
I wouldnt say that I felt raped, but knowing what I know now, 'assaulted' would probably cover it! The sweep was soon over, and there were no lasting effects, but I can easily imagine that people who have been manhandled and treated without their consent would use the word 'raped'.

This is a situation where I would say that somewhere like MN is a blessing. There is so much info here, and threads like this help educate people as to what is acceptable.

Leftwingharpie · 21/10/2012 09:03

While I'm sensitive to the concerns raised on the thread, I'm pretty certain 'rape' has to be with a penis - see below. If the penetration is with something other than a penis, such as forceps, or fingers, then the offence is assault by penetration.

Under section 1(1) Sexual Offences Act 2003 a defendant, A, is guilty of rape if:

_ A intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of B (the complainant) with his penis;

_ B does not consent to the penetration; and,

_ A does not reasonably believe that B consents.

Original poster
WantsToBeFree · 21/10/2012 09:20

In some countries objects are included in this definition.

For example, the new FBI definition of rape includes objects and also men as victims.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-16452014

OP posts:
Original poster
WantsToBeFree · 21/10/2012 09:28

www.rapecrisis.org.uk/rapeampsexualviolence2.php

RapeCrisis UK appears to involve objects as well- maybe some recent change?

OP posts:
Original poster
WantsToBeFree · 21/10/2012 09:29

I meant appears to include not involve......

OP posts:
GhostShip · 21/10/2012 09:53

Birth rape is an absolutely disgusting term.

One coined to have maximum impact, without realising the implications of what it means.

GhostShip · 21/10/2012 09:56

And rape is a sexual thing. Nothing done in birth is sexual. It is done because the people doing it think it is best.

This does not mean it is right, NOTHING should be done without consent. It is abuse, not rape.

I think it's disgusting that women are calling this rape.

TheFallenMadonna · 21/10/2012 10:13

When I was in labour with DS, I was incapable of giving informed consent. I was beyond exhausted, hallucinating and terrified. Intervention was required. It couldn't stop because I was not in a fit state to consent to it. And for me, that is the reason why the word rape is inappropriate. It doesn't mean that women should not be afforded respect during kabour, simply that they are different situations.

I think, despite a messy and traumatising conclusion, the people delivering my son did the right thing. My "care" on the ward however left me humiliated, as did my treatment in the same hospital during a subsequent miscarriage.

crashdoll · 21/10/2012 10:41

Hearing some of the stories on here makes me very sad. However, I feel very uncomfortable with the term birth rape. I'm not belittling what people have been through but the terminology doesn't sit well with me.