AIBU to be absolutely horrified by this way of thinking?

[WantsToBeFree]

The YouTube video above has some interesting views on "birth rape", which have scared me a bit to be honest. This guy appears to think that when a woman walks into a hospital to give birth, she has given implied consent to any examination or procedure that they may decide to perform on her. If she isn't agreeable, then she should just deliver the baby alone, at home.

WHAT?!?!?!

I understand that for some obvious things there is consent (the doctor will have to touch the genitals while guiding the baby out etc.) , but there is no implied consent for forceps, ventouse, episiotomies and c sections! These are serious procedures which can only be performed after the necessity has been explained to the mother and her consent has been obtained. Only in a minuscule proportion of cases would there be a situation where the doctor doesn't even have 2 minutes to at least get verbal consent.

And yes, I do think that even though we don't have medical degrees we have the final say in what does or doesn't happen to our bodies. I also think that it isn't unreasonable for a woman to feel violated if a procedure was performed on her without her express consent during the delivery or if her dignity and modesty were disregarded.

I think most of us realise that childbirth is unpredictable and involves intimate exposure. However, this doesn't mean that the healthcare professionals can treat us however they want and that we have to give them a carte blanche to do what they please.

I am stupefied that people (who claim to be liberals) actually think that way. Interestingly, these are the same guys who were furious when the transvaginal ultrasound was made mandatory for women seeking abortions in an American state and they called it "government sanctioned rape". Well, if the doctor can't put an ultrasound probe in my fanjo without my consent, why do they think it's Ok for him/her to put in a pair of forceps without my consent or worse, against my consent?

Even liberals are misogynistic when it comes to childbirth....

But they don't have to do those internals. Plenty of people manage without.

I had forceps which I begged for because of the situation they put me in so completely consented to. I did not consent to some other things and actually expressed my wishes not to have it.

Right okay, how about the warning in red in my notes saying I was not to be put in stirrups? I reminded this to the MW while she was shoving me in them and was told "well you're in them now" :@. She put one of my legs in one backwards and refused to believe me, the anaesthnatist had to tell her I was right.

Or while I was pushing, the MW grabbing my legs and pushing my knees up to my chest even when I told her not to and that I couldn't physically do it.

They dont need to see how dilated you are unless they have some reason to think.things arent progressing normally.

And the dr that wanted to examine me didnt need to know how dilated i was, he didnt need to be there but repeatedly came into my room without knocking as he had seen my notes and thought i was intetesting case. Plus the mudwufe had examined me and saud how dilated i was but he wanted to 'see for himself' yet there was NO reason for him to be involved. So yes had he gone against my wishes and examined me that would have been assault. As it was he was incredibly rude, over-bearing and patronising. The head midwife made him leave me alone. He didnt need to be there, iwas being cared for fine by a midwife, i was fine, baby was fine...he was just nosey and intetested.

Had he politely said that he was intetestef and could he observe i would have said yes as i did to the student who asked politely! But i wont be patronised or have someone ignore me aa he did.

But they have to do internal before admitting you to the ward? Otherwise how else would they know whether the labour is established and the woman can be admitted?

A good midwife can tell how a labour is progressing without doing an internal. There are other physiological signs. They dont need to do an internal examination.

I've given birth twice, both vaginally, both induced and in a lot of pain, one with a failed epidural, one with no pain relief at all, tore both times - but the single thing that sticks out above all else is the midwife I had with DC2 who was so rough and callous with her examinations. :(

Some of the other signs are on this thread

erm they can tell the labour is established if a woman is having contractions of a certain strength at certain intervals???

Sometimes internals do nothing but make you feel like shit.

sometimes you take hours to get from 4to 6 ck then the last 4 cm are over in half an hour

Sometimes internals do nothing but make you feel like shit.

Yes.

I was at Milton Keynes hospital fr both dd and ds, they were wonderful second to none. I felt very happy at each stage and how I was treated but I guess it's not for everyone.

With unnecessary vaginal examination it can lead to other things.

It can put women off from having smears, I have seen a few times that due to giving birth women fear having them done.

Vaginal examinations also increase the chances of infection once waters have broken.

Waters can be broken accidentally during an examination which means there is then a time limit as to how long baby can remain in uterous. My friend had an examination at 39wks by consultant, she was seeing consultant for ante-natal deptession! He did a vaginal just to see how things were, her waters broke. No labour within 24hrs so then induction with drip, distressed baby and c-section.

It was her first baby she didnt think to question if there was any need for the examination! There was NO need for it but it led to cascade of interventions and then of course she was higher risk for subsequent preg because of c section.

All because a dr thoufht he would do an unnecessary vaginal examination!

piglet mania
I think you are making the same mistake as the people in the video. Nobody is denying that birth is intimate and that it does involve exposure and invasive procedures in some cases. I think one would have to be living under a rock not to know that.
The point is that examining a woman or performing any major procedures without her express consent is unacceptable.
An internal in itself is not rape (and nobody said it was), but forcibly putting a woman in stirrups and examining her or inserting instruments in her when she has clearly refused is certainly assault.
What people forget is that legally, women have the right to refuse ANY procedure even if it puts them and their baby at risk. They also have the right to ask for alternatives in case the proposed plan of action is not acceptable to them (eg; requesting c section in place of forceps etc.)
There are women like yourself who tend to trust doctors and are willing to undergo anything to get the baby out, but there are also women (like myself for example) who don't have that kind of blind faith in the medical community and want a say in what happens to their bodies. We deserve that right.

I agree with *WantsToBeFree"'s entire statement.

SarryB

Since rape is classified as the insertion of a penis and/or objects into a female's vagina without her consent, I'd say that any medical procedure that involves the insertion of instruments into the woman's body without her consent is rape.
Would you think it was OK for a man to forcibly insert a pair of salad tongs into a woman's vagina as long as he didn't have sexual intentions? I hope not.
Then why is it OK for a doctor to insert interments, speculums or ultrasound probes into a woman without her consent simply because his/her intent isn't sexual?

pigletmania - are you being deliberately obtuse or do you genuinely not get the premise of the thread?

Exactly wantstobefree i after a bad experience witj ds1 (i was 19 and assumed drs new best) i opted to be informed, to question and ask for explanation/clarification etc in my subsequent labours. Had i not things may have turned out differently!

sparkly that dr was an arsehole! It can hurt for many reasons but it doesnt have to hurt at all and i had examinations which were pain free, the skill and consideration of the petson doing ut makes a difference AND if it hurts and you say so they should stop and offer pain relief ie gas and air for internals or if they need to break your waters etc. I have 'tough membranes' so to break them required lots of rummaging but they gave me gas and air, helped me to relax and said i should say to stop at any point if it was too much.

I'm tokophobic- to the point that my phobia caused me to fail my exams. I just think about how I'd feel if I were forced into an assisted vaginal birth and it sickens me. I think about the begging I'll have to do to get an elective c section and it makes me angry.
We shouldn't have to feel so powerless- we should have the confidence of knowing that we can control our own birthing process and not be at the mercy of paternalistic, autocratic doctors. Just because I don't have a medical degree doesn't mean I can't make decisions about my body and health.

I am older and past child bearing age, but I have had smears for decades. Each time they insert a metal thing that opens everything up to get the smear done. Not pleasant, but was necessary, it certainly was not a violation of me. Also had a long stick with a mirror on the end stuck up me to look into all the bits inside womb and ovaries. Still it was not violation or rape, don't know where these ideas come from? Also having my breasts felt by a man at the cancer unit, never occured to me that it was violation. During childbirth, all those years ago, I shouted at the hospital midwife at inserting her fingers up me to see how far I was dilated as she leant on my stomach to do it, and was agony. During my 36 hours of screaming in agony as unknown to the nurses that the baby was coming through my cervix on her back at full shoulder width, as had no scans in those days, I was shouted at for screaming and generally treated like dirt, and all I cared about was to be agony free at last and looking around for a hammer to hit my head on to put me out because they wouldn't.!!!! No epidurals in my day. Childbirth is not dignified never was and never will be. That's how it is. Unless you all want a c-section? Many do these days. I just wish there had been epidurals in my day.

digerd am assuming you made an app for your smears and gave your consent therefore that is fine.

We are talking about instances where consent is not gained, procedures are not explained and women are not given a choice.

wantstobefree my.understanding was that the nice guidlines say you can now request a c section? You shouldnt have to beg, hopefully you get an understanding midwife.

Anyone reading this who is pregnant may want to look at home birth. Just changing the environment to home instead of hospital - your home, your environment - is incredibly helpful.

Examinations aren't necessarily a guide to if you are in established labour though. It depends whether you say established labour is x cm and/or whether there are regular strong contractions and/or whether it is x hours before you give birth etc etc. in many cases it will be consistent between all three but there is a significant minority where they might never be considered in established labour.

For example, I arrived at midwife led unit and the midwife offered me a VE but made it very clear it was a choice and I could stay if I refused (admitted into the birth centre into a birthing room). My contractions were irregular and I was only 3cm but having observed me she said I should stay and see how we went, 1.5 hours later I had a baby. If she had gone by the admitting criteria of some wards I would have had the baby at home or in the car, but she used skill and experience rather than a list of criteria for "standard" labours.

The problem with most people who object to requiring consent to perform procedures on women in labour is that they don't realise that all doctors are not the same. In different situations different doctors and midwives will do different things but they can't all be the "right" course of action. Some will err on the side of avoiding intervention, some on the side of performing an intervention just to be on the safe side. Just because a doctor or midwife wants to do x does not mean it is necessary or preferable.

I don't think that there are many women who in a situation where they are told "if we don't do x you or your baby will die, do you give us permission to do this?" will say no. But they should always be given that statement and question. It's basic medical ethics.

digerd has also missed the point.

5madthings

That is what the guidelines say, but unfortunately many hospitals don't really follow those guidelines because many trusts are so strapped for funds, and some midwives and doctors are just generally not understanding.

I also know of a case where a woman was told she would get a c section, but then they just let her go into labour and deliver vaginally (they lied to her basically) that too without any pain relief.

So unless I happen to be living in London and have £15000 stashed away by the time i get pregnant, I don't think I will be guaranteed a c section.