AIBU to be absolutely horrified by this way of thinking?

[WantsToBeFree]

The YouTube video above has some interesting views on "birth rape", which have scared me a bit to be honest. This guy appears to think that when a woman walks into a hospital to give birth, she has given implied consent to any examination or procedure that they may decide to perform on her. If she isn't agreeable, then she should just deliver the baby alone, at home.

WHAT?!?!?!

I understand that for some obvious things there is consent (the doctor will have to touch the genitals while guiding the baby out etc.) , but there is no implied consent for forceps, ventouse, episiotomies and c sections! These are serious procedures which can only be performed after the necessity has been explained to the mother and her consent has been obtained. Only in a minuscule proportion of cases would there be a situation where the doctor doesn't even have 2 minutes to at least get verbal consent.

And yes, I do think that even though we don't have medical degrees we have the final say in what does or doesn't happen to our bodies. I also think that it isn't unreasonable for a woman to feel violated if a procedure was performed on her without her express consent during the delivery or if her dignity and modesty were disregarded.

I think most of us realise that childbirth is unpredictable and involves intimate exposure. However, this doesn't mean that the healthcare professionals can treat us however they want and that we have to give them a carte blanche to do what they please.

I am stupefied that people (who claim to be liberals) actually think that way. Interestingly, these are the same guys who were furious when the transvaginal ultrasound was made mandatory for women seeking abortions in an American state and they called it "government sanctioned rape". Well, if the doctor can't put an ultrasound probe in my fanjo without my consent, why do they think it's Ok for him/her to put in a pair of forceps without my consent or worse, against my consent?

Even liberals are misogynistic when it comes to childbirth....

Wants Was that me? I was told to try VB and if I felt I couldn't they would take me for a section, then they refused when I asked, then claimed no knowledge, then said they would but put it off until I needed the forceps, failed epidural but forced to stay on my back as that was the procedure for epidurals.

SchrodingersMew

No, I was talking about a close friend of mine- she isn't on mumsnet, although I am sure I have read about similar cases here.

I am so sorry to hear about all your experiences:( They sound really awful.
I hope you have recovered from them physically and emotionally without any lasting damage.

Your poor friend. :(

I just get so angry now and have nightmares a lot about it. Will never recover physically unfortunately and off for investigation and urethral stretching under GA next month amoung other things.

I am only 21 FFS.

5mads that's not necessarily true, everyone is different. With ds3 I managed to get to 5 cm dilated with nothing more than a few period type pains. The cord prolapsed because the mw and me had no idea I was so dialated, by the time I got to theatre, less than 10 mins later I was getting on for 10 cm. Still with no real contractions.

It's this whole idea that mw can tell how advanced your labour is without actually checking the cervix which led to me having to go under ga for an emcs.

Schrodinger

Oh gosh, you are younger than even I am! This is just AWFUL.

I will pray that you recover quickly and painlessly and return to your normal self. Sometimes miracles happen right? Best to be positive!

Please keep me posted?

Wants I'll be fine. I just want other women to know that it doesn't have to be like that and they can have a say and remove themselves from the situation if necessary.

Thank you. :)

This makes me so sad - that so many people have had horrible experiences at the hands of Drs and midwives. I really want to beleive that those are the minority of experiences. I had a pretty brutal forceps devilery with DS, and I think I only got through it because the Drs and miwives were amazing. I was begging for a section or an epidural, but the Dr very very patiently explained again and again all the upsides/downsides of doing it with or without an epidural, explained exactly what she needed to do and told me many times that she absolutely could not touch me without my consent. If you give birth at Bolton, ask for Dr Phillipa! She's brilliant.

I was examined when I arrived, as my contractions were a bit hit and miss and my waters had broken 24hrs earlier, and I was already nearly 7cm. The midwife was lovely, although the examination was painful she got me some gas and was as gentle as she could be when she had problems getting her fingers behind the baby's head I think.

But yeah, I guess what I'm saying is that I really hope that the attitude that women consent to whatever and should just lump it is a minority opinion. And that the majority of people in maternity care are nice, caring people.

easilybored

Sorry to hear about your experience.

May I just ask for a clarification? You say that you begged for an epidural or a c section- Did they give you either? Why did they still go ahead with a "brutal forceps" delivery? Doesn't really matter if the doctor was polite if she still went ahead and did what SHE wanted.

I am not answering for easily but from she has said to me (we are sisters) the dts were kind and explained everything, her ds was also almist born there wasnt any need for a section more that she was knackered and wanted her ds out! And in the haze og the pain that seemed like a good idea. They did say they could do an epidural but she would have had to wait ti get anaesthstist, get it set up etc. Whereas she used gas and air and tho it was brutal it was over in minutes.

It wasnt a case of thw dr riding rough shot over easily more they explained all the options wuth pros/cons to each and let her decide. They were akso kind, patient, had good bedside manners etc and made sure she felt listened to amd supported so tho forceps were ger wirst nightmare it was actually ok iyswim?

Apologies toadface for answering for you

My birth was a bit traumatic for me. I had several internal examinations, and when I was in full on labour a couple of bad ones.

One doctor was doing one, and I felt him kind of swing his finger around my cervix, as if he was just pushing it around the baby's head, if that makes sense? I was 10cm, and I guess the cervix was still over it a little bit or something. Anyway, it was absolutely agony, and he said 'oh, sorry'. I had a panic attack for a minute! To him it was nothing, but there was no appreciation of the fact that that action hurt like hell and was probably entirely unnecessary.

The other thing that upset me was a different doctor was doing one a bit later, and a contraction started, and I said 'no no no' because it was getting very painful. The midwife leant over and held my legs apart as I was trying to close them, so he could finish what he was doing. Held me down, basically.

I rationalised it at the time as them needing to do their job, and I still think the second time in particular may have been for the best, rather than have to undergo another exam after the contraction had ended. I feel crap about the whole birth, went for a debrief but there was so much I wanted to ask those incidents never came up.

I feel like the doctors may have been doing the best for me in the long run, but I wouldn't know would I?! They just seemed so cavalier about the whole thing, and really it makes you feel like a piece of meat.

As for the 'rape' terminology, not that I would consider my situation to be that, I think it's entirely appropriate if a woman is penetrated with anything without her consent, in any situation. I feel that women are not afforded any kind of respect in childbirth. I was considering a homebirth, it was my first so decided against it. Maybe next time .

5MadThings

Ah, Ok. Sounds terrible:( I think my tokophobia just shot up a couple notches....

I had always thought that unless they are outlet forceps being used, forceps deliveries are never done without proper pain relief. It says so in all the guidelines I've read.

I think easily found gas and air ok?

But yes they try and get an epidural.in but its not always possible.

I had DS1 in another country where part of the antenatal "care" was to ask if you had experienced sexual abuse/rape as they would then be sensitive to particular issues regarding examinations & the delivery etc I replied in the affirmative to this & whilst I consented to internal examinations there did not seem to be any concessions made during the delivery. It was a non-straightforward delivery & there were up to three obstrecians present at a time, & the stereotypical bitch of a midwife. I ended up flat on my back with knees pushed into my chest for the pushing stage which was deemed necessary at the time for safe delivery & which I rationally agree with, but on reflection of the events this fact really disturbs me.

I can see there is a case for calling it birth rape, although perhaps birth violation would be better wording so as not to diminish rape victims. The basic thing was that it made me feel powerless & my own wishes for the treatment of my body were not respected, & also shame for allowing oneself to get into that experience, so very similar to after-effects of rape. I also felt a bit like this when later a midwife was yanking my breasts around for breastfeeding - another thing which many complain of.

I suppose I use the word brutal because, well, it's not a gentle entry to the world is it? I had a lot of stitches afterwards, but no lasting issues, and I healed very quickly. 5mad is right - I had been in laour all night, was beyond exhausted and I was falling asleep between contractions. DS wasn't really budging any further, and his heart rate was a bit fast. I could have had an epidural, however they would have had to take me into theatre, get it in etc and the whole thing would have taken up to 45 minutes. The Dr explained that she could do a pudendal block and local, and although it would hurt, I could have DS in my arms in less than 5 minutes, and be up and about straight away afterwards. Those were the pros and cons, and I chose the 5 minute option. All the staff were brilliant, I was a bit hysterical with exhaustion and in pain and they were very patient. Although the Dr did take the gas off me at one point as she 'needed me to focus and listen'. The gas made me really loopy, so I think she had a point!

I'll let you off for answering for me! You're right, the forceps were the one thing I said was NOT happening to me. I even wrote it in my birth plan! HA! As it turns out, it was as bad as I imagined pain-wise, but I still don't regret not having the epidural, as I was up and about straight away and I think that helped me a lot. The only change I would make to the birth is that I would not have had the pethadine - I think that made me feel more tired and I would have been more awake to push. But at the time, I really needed that pethedine!

Wants I have no idea if it was an outlets forceps delivery; I would think it was likely to be as he was really nearly out, I just could not get him any further. Honestly, it did hurt; having the forceps put on was painful, but it was two pushes/pulls and he was out and the recovery was fine.

Somersault just because I don't agree with the majority makes me difficult . I am entitled to my view as you are. Op I do not understand why anybody would put themselves and their baby at risk if they have the right to refuse a proceedures. When. Have been in hospital hcp have always been great with explaining proceedures, i have never been forcibly examined. Mabey I have a rose tinted glasses on from my own more positive experiences. I felt that everything that was appending to me was for the greater good of my baby.

But sometimes there is no risk to the baby. I have said this about 3 times now.

Gah, apologies for thriple posting, but it's late and I keep forgetting stuff.

I think the point I was trying to make, is that although I had an intervention heavy delivery, and it's not what I had wanted from my birth, I'm still happy with it because I was given the choice at each stage, treated with respect and listened to. The staff were patient and professional and treated me like an adult, not like a body to do with as they please. I found it 'brutal' because it wasn't the peaceful, quiet experience I had hoped for, but that wasn't anyone's fault. I think a lot of the reason I am still happy with the whole experience is because of the way it was handled by the Drs and midwives iyswim? Having interventions you had hoped to avoid does sometimes happen through noone's fault, and it is possible to be happy with a non ideal delivery without having the attitude of 'well I just let them do whatever they wanted as long as I got a healthy baby out of it'.

I have found it more upsetting than previously to go for smears and a recent colposcopy, but I wonder if that is more a fear of having something cause pain there, rather than having a Dr near me iyswim?

Oh oh oh, and the staff that did the colposcopy were AMAZING as well. I really feel like some Drs are giving the NHS a bad name, when there are some lovely people working there that deserve more praise!

wantstobefree I think you misunderstood me...I didn't mean that I don't think it's rape, I was just unsure as to what it is that actually constitutes rape. Thank you for clearing it up for me. I don't actually believe that rape is always a sexual thing anyway.

Am I making sense?

I'm not accusing you of being obtuse because you disagree, but rather because you're spectacularly missing the point.

This is not about people having lovely, pleasant, consensual procedures, in spite of your individual experience.

Most women wont put their baby at risk!

My baby was fine, there was NO need for a vaginal examination, the dr just wanted to be involved as i was an interesting case! Regardless tho, consent should ALWAYS be obtained.

pigletmania

I'm very happy for you and your perfect experiences.

Perhaps you need to understand that a lot of women refuse certain procedures because they feel uncomfortable with the risks associated with those procedures. It isn't always about a life or death situation as you seem to be imagining.

I imagine there are very few women who would refuse a procedure that was life or death, but it's not OK for Drs to run roughshod over patients and insist on procedures that make life easier for them, or are just routine rather than necessary. If a woman wants to discuss the procedure, the Dr or midwife should listen to her and discuss why they want to do it and the woman's concerns. That doesn't seem to happen all the time, which is worrying and sad.

Exactly easily it wasnt ideal.or what you wanted but they treated you with respect and listened to you etc.

Had they told you to shut up, held you down and just done it regardless, that would be assault. But because they listened to you, explained things to you and gave you a choice the process was ok. Painful yes but you felt respected and not violated which is the key issue.

Sometimes painful.medical procedures have to be carried out, but uf you have a dr who listens to you, speaks to you calmly, reassures you and apoligises for the pain you will feel better than if the dr tells you to.stop making a fuss and ignores you.

I definately think women should have more say. I was induced with my first, put straight on a drip (despite not being given any sweeps or pessary previously). I did consent to this, however, after a short time they kept turning it up and turning it up. The final time I clearly stated 'do not turn it up' several times as I could not take any more. The midwife ignored my instructions and turned the drip up again...within a few minutes the alarms went off and I was having an EMCS under GA as baby was distressed (this i did consent to). Why would a midwife not listen to the person who's body it was? Sometimes if your body is telling you something isn't right, it's not right, and no professional looking at you can see that.