in thinking raising obnoxious kids might actually be in their best interests?

[Quasimodo]

was helping on a school trip yesterday. i found myself vexed, not by the rowdy/rude/answer back type kids (have one of them, know how to handle! ) but a couple of quiet/aloof kids who just completely ignored me! with a defiant superior air! drove me a bit mad...but got to thinking, they will probably go far?? under the radar, well spoken...and you can get away with alsorts huh?

is their any benefit to raising 'good' kids? really? quite determination, self-belief...all high flying characteristics

i spect their parents think they are anyway...awfully polite...but at the same time...completely disrespectful how d'they manage that?

Not sure of your point but you may be describing my dd. I don't quite see how anyone being quite and aloof could wind someone up so much unless you have a slight inferiority complex?
How are they being disrespectful? You already said they were polite.

They listened politely...and then ignored instructions and did exactly what they liked! repeatedly. all day!!

I was frustrated!

Then...got to thinking....that the kids will probably go far like that....?

sorry point is probably a bit confused...

(not sure how you got that I have inferiority complex? inferior to who? the 10 year olds? ?)

I don't understand either, the rowdy/rude/answer back children disrupt others, miss information and underachieve for themselves on a regular basis. They can often dominate situations unfairly by sheer volume and want far more than their fair share of attention.
The quiet aloof ones are often those that speak when they have something to contribute and prefer to distance themselves from the more gobby members.
They often learn through independent methods rather than as part of a mob.
Did they ignore you when you said important things, or just when you were chatting?

Well, in my case, I hope you are right!

I have a 4yo (ASD) who listens politely and then does EXAaCTLY what he was going to do before and ignores all further instructions / reprimands.

So, I really hope this is a sign hell go far

Agree that it is bloody infuriating tho, and I don't have an inferiority complex either

If they were ignoring important instructions that they needed to follow, then you should have spoken to the teacher about it. Rudeness is not tolerated to any helpers in my school, and in the majority of others.

Confusing post. So the quiet kds are polite, how tey can be disrespectful then

No teacher worth the name would give a child with SN or any other specific need like an allergy or significant EAL requirements to a parent helper unable to deal appropriately with it.

no woffling..they ignored instructions i mean

they were more disruptive than the rowdy kids...which was my revelation i suppose...i had to keep looking for them

I think I know what you mean, Quasi. Sounds like you had a difficult and frustrating day. It's much easier to deal with children who are openly defiant than with children who just refuse to engage.

The children are probably wise to avoid confrontation. However, I would imagine that their teacher has ways of making sure that their behaviour stays within acceptable limits - she would be doing them a huge disservice if she allowed them to be antisocial, however quietly and politely.

'So the quiet kds are polite, how tey can be disrespectful then '

In many ways!
Just not sure what the OP is meaning yet.

Well, that attitude has certainly worked just fine for me (and DH).

If I think my way is the best way and the person who is talking is talking shit and there won't be much in the way of repercussions.

Then I will smile and nod and just do what I want.

Smile and Nod, Smile and Nod.

Should add that I have come across this attitude from children and young people when working in schools (I was supporting individual children's learning and behaviour, but this also involved dealing with some of their peers as well). It usually sorted itself out when the children concerned fully understood that I was actually part of the hierarchy and that the teachers were willing to back me up. As a parent helper on a school trip, it can be difficult to make this clear in one short day, and it does depend on what kind of support you get from teachers.

The post makes perfect sense - the kids listened and didn't answer back or snigger or stick their tongues out at her when she (for example) told them not to cross the road until she gave the go ahead, but they just quietly went ahead and crossed on their own, putting themselves in potential danger and splitting the group who were meant to be walking together. Of course you can break the rules without being rude and loud, and of course that can be very frustrating for the authority figure as you don't have the gradually escalating behaviour you can nip in the bud before they do something dangerous or quietly disruptive.

I was quite loud at school but also did the quiet defiant things (made to give up my lunch hour to re-take an internal school test because the teacher thought I could do better - I knew my mark was mid range for the class and objected to doing it again so didn't take a pen or ask for one and refused to write on the paper, for example) I wouldn't say it necessarily got me anywhere though :o Although it did mean one teacher would send me to the head and another would send me back to class, not believing I could have misbehaved :o

haha! morloth you have just made me realise, I am like that too!!
which is why it probably frustrated me
and why i got to thinking they will go far....and was they will

so...my rather confusing point was....all these characteristics in kids, which are annoying/undesirable/we try to iron out.....should we really be? we dont want an army of well-behaved compliant kids do we really?

All the 'naughty' characteristics are actually quite desirable as you get older....quiet or rowdy

Agree with Morloth, I am a huge one for smiling, nodding in total agreement and then totally ignoring what I have been told.

And yes, it has rubbed off on my kids too, outwardly ds appears exceedingly well mannered and will always agree with instructions and appear to be listening, but then will just go and do his own thing. I think it is just a very strong independent/stubborn streak and I think you are right op quite often it will take you far.

Those who spend time arguing back and being openly difficult just make a bad name for themselves and tend to not be trusted.

englishwoman thanks, yes that is exactly what i meant, that is exactly what the kids were like

not explaining it well though,

I know plenty of adults who behave like this too and it is incredibly irritating. I much prefer people who tell me out and out why they have no intention of doing what I have asked, even if they are rude in doing so. At least that way we can have a conversation about their issues/concerns and we can figure out (usually) a way to address them and move on. This is at work mind when it can really matter knowing if people are on board with an initiative or not, and where adult conversations are expected.

Children on the other hand usually evolve a few more times before reaching adulthood. I wouldn't assume that behaviour when young will necessarily persist.

Not all the naughty traits Quasi some of the things kids get a time out for in school will get them arrested if they do them as adults!

Did you speak to the teacher about it?

gobblers in term of the argue-backers making a bad name for themselves....surely the teachers get wise to the stealth-do-as-you-likers though?

it does seem massively unfair that the loud ones get it in the neck

I think the loud argumentative traits also have massive potential to take you far. so feel it is unfair that they are 'squashed'

nooka YY...it is better to bottom it out

I know many such children, unfortunately, and similar experiences when on school trips. The quiet ones are always hatching something!

I really think that the behaviours we value in a classroom aren't particularly helpful in adult life. Be quiet / do as you're told / stay with the group are all absolutely valid interns of making a teachers job possible, but they don't go a long way to help children excel I don't think. I was a super well behaved kid in school. At 31, I feel like the things people value in me are the opposite traits (willingness to speak up / using initiative etc). So I agree op, they probably will go far but are exhausting to care for.

Child-wrangling is a skilled art that teachers are usually experts in, but that is one of the many challenges that children face when working as a group, or as part of a class community. They have to time share and listen to the opinions and instructions of others. Which being born basically as egocentric life forms, some take longer to develop those skills than others.
eg In reception the majority call out and have 1:1 conversations with the adults, by Y6 this is limited to a few less mature individuals, or none.

It is not 'squashing' them,Quasimodo it is about having respect for others. If only my neighbour's taught their children that. My own children aren't saints, but they know how to behave and have respect around others.