in thinking raising obnoxious kids might actually be in their best interests?

[Quasimodo]

was helping on a school trip yesterday. i found myself vexed, not by the rowdy/rude/answer back type kids (have one of them, know how to handle! ) but a couple of quiet/aloof kids who just completely ignored me! with a defiant superior air! drove me a bit mad...but got to thinking, they will probably go far?? under the radar, well spoken...and you can get away with alsorts huh?

is their any benefit to raising 'good' kids? really? quite determination, self-belief...all high flying characteristics

i spect their parents think they are anyway...awfully polite...but at the same time...completely disrespectful how d'they manage that?

Smile and Nod is a pretty effective way of dealing with most people I find.

As is Tick the Box.

I had to explain to DS1 the other day that clearly his Year 2 teacher wasn't going to sort out his reading levels and give him real books. We tried, we wrote what he was reading (and comprehending), we explained that he really doesn't need picture books anymore. And still she sent home these ridiculous baby books.

So, he smiles and nods and reads the book and ticks the box and continues reading real books.

DH explained that, yes it was stupid and yes it was unnecessary, but really what was the outcome DS1 needed?

That's life. Play the game and smile and nod...

"Smile and nod" is fine when dealing with some people, eg unsolicited parenting advice. But at work it is just not an effective technique, where - as someone else said - adult and honest conversations are expected and necessary

At work its extremely annoying. A temp repeatedly did exactly this - asked questions, listened in training and nodded along to instructions on how to approach the work. Then she just totally ignored it all and did it how she thought was best. Itwas ridiculously, infuriating and bloody rude. She got fired :)

Yeah, maybe not at work.

But then again, depends on who is talking and what they are talking about.

School teaches valuable lessons about how to "play the game" of conventional situations/ dealing with authority, whether that is the intention or not, so Morloth maybe your DS has learnt that useful lesson already :)

Smile and nod is only useful when dealing with comparative strangers who have no influence over your life, when dealing with workplace or closer personal relationships is very over rated IMO - everyone suggests it but it doesn't always work on my MIL and can be taken as incomprehension or as absolute agreement, leading to tensions later (like in the case of the temp - somebody is going to find out you are not going along with what you were told and appeared to agree to, and if this is a work scenario or some other areas of life there are likely to be repercussions)

By GCSE and post 16 speaking up and taking the initiative absolutely are valued in school - obviously not if that means swearing and yelling and storming about, but speaking up in an appropriate manner, taking the lead in group work, will get you rewards (at least in humanities subjects where debate is encouraged, less experience of maths and sciences which I imagine still do place greater emphasis on quiet hard work)

Quasimodo I have quite compliant toddlers and often get whistful comments from friends with bolters or more defiant toddlers about how "good" mine are. But while I realise it makes life easy now I desperately hope they start to be less compliant before they are grown ups. I think there are lots of traits we find useful in children but are not ideal for adult life and bending to the will of others is one.

I very much agree that a lot of the compliance we demand of children does them a diservice as they get older. One of the things I dislike the most about the education system in this country is the way it seems to value obedience and compliancy over encouraging students to explore their own agency. The point of good education should be to enable us to reach our own potential and know ourselves, not meet the goals set for us by others. It seems like we are keener on raising sheep (or more rats for the rat race) than celebrating and engaging in our humanity.

I'm hoping to encourage my girls to learn when to comply, when to follow Morloth's tick the box method and when to raise hell. Not sure I have it down myself yet though...

If I didn't use smile and nod on my mil I would have done her actually bodily harm by now.....

I don't agree at all with 'squashing' the loud kids, I think they should be heard, but too often it isn't the case and they get labelled.

I have a nephew like this.
His behaviour has backfired on him a few times when he's with me.
Not with his parents who only threaten but don't punish.

DS knows it's better to challenge immediately as he's got a better chance asking than not.
:o

When I was teaching, the children I worried about most were the ones who were pretty much 100% compliant - the ones who were terrified of putting a foot wrong and who were devastated if the teacher wasn't happy with them. They found it hard to handle situations that weren't entirely fair (which happens often when dealing with 30 people) and took things very personally. They were hard to teach because you had to really watch what you said to them.

The children I felt would do well were ones who knew how to bend the rules in a sensible way - chatting quietly when the teacher is clearly relaxed and not too bothered, ignoring a rule that's plainly for the worst behaved children, challenging the teacher in a polite way if things don't seem right. They would take criticism/discipline on the chin and you could have a laugh with them - they were fun and interesting to teach. They have people skills - they know when to push and when to keep quiet, they know people aren't always entirely fair and don't take it personally. That's stuff you can't really teach and I think it's largely connected to personality.

The loud rowdy ones can go either way. They can be rowdy due to lack of confidence in which case due to constant discipline eroding their confidence further they'll either become angry and bolshy or quiet and withdrawn, neither of which is good. Thankfully a lot of rowdy ones who just don't know how to play the game morph into the canny type I described as they get older, it just takes them a bit longer.

OP - I think you might be on to something there.I know I always go out of my way to be helpful and obliging and I just end up being treated as a doormat if I'm not careful.

cailin and others...is it possible to accomodate all these personalities in the classroom then? and still teach?

i like the iddea of kids being able to shout out for example, so you get their ideas as they fire into their heads; I think some kids are reluctant to actually say summat if they have to put their hands up etc....but i can see why this doesnt work in a classroom

or letting the quiet defectors, learn through independant methods....?

'They listened politely...and then ignored instructions and did exactly what they liked! repeatedly. all day!!'. Wow, this is my husband and I have to say, his behaviour is not good for our relationship, I don't always believe 100% when he agrees with me or commit to do something and I wish he could conunicate exactly what he thinks or feel, and work as a team. People who have this trait are not team players and this makes life hard for them at work too because I think they lack confidence to speak up and stand up for themselves, or put their pint across. They are not leaders they are sheep. I'm glad my dd is the opposite, she can be a handful yes but she voices her opinion and make herself understood, she is clear in her intentions. I have a friend whose dd annoys me so much because she will ignore every instruction so politely and it makes her more unwelcome in my home than the 'naughty ones' whose I know where to stand. Also the 'smile and nod' technique can be done by anyone to specific situations, I don't think it is a good personality trait to have at all times.

Quasi, I get what you are saying & think I probably agree. I see this alot in the working environment. Meetings take place, actions are agreed & then some people go away & do exactly what they want. Others will argue the toss & often have a reputation for being a bit of a pain, but more often than not, if they are shouted down, then they tow the line. It is the silent, sneaky ones that seem to get away with murder!

"Then I will smile and nod and just do what I want.

Smile and Nod, Smile and Nod. "

this is my official mode for when visiting my mother. i encourage my dcs to do the same.

some people will insist they are right regardless of how much you tell/show them that they aren't. it is often easier to let them think they have achieved their goal of getting their way. adults aren't always right about things and sometimes children can know this but be unable to say so, either through fear of being told off for "being cheeky/smartarsed/rude/etc" or maybe they cant articulate what they want to say so they just nod and smile then do what they know is right. of course sometimes they are just doing what they want regardless of whether it's the right thing

MY dd was the quiet aloof child she wasn't rude but painfully shy and introverted I don't think a in your face child is a good thing but them being able to talk for themselves and speak up shows confidence over confidence is annoying ,

this reminds me of that saying "it's the quiet ones you have to watch". very true of my sister as a child/teen. she got away with far more than i would ever have tried to because she was clever enough to appear as if she was listening to and accepting the rules. i hated her for her tongue biting ability.

I see these children as independent rather than naughty or disrespectful my own DD likes to do things her way but would be really upset if she thought she was being disrespectful she says what she has too and thats it , the rowdier ones like the attention nothing wrong with that though all children are different though It is just how we deal with them that is different, the 'gobby' kids do as they are told because they want you to look at them and give them your full attention, maybe the 'aloof' children just found something interesting to look at

YY mrsjay whilst I found it harder to deal with (because my kids are gobby) I totally do appreciate that it isnt better or worse

and actually useful

and...how do teachers preserve all these characteristics...but/and teach effectively?

is it possible?

I work with preschoolers and you even get the aloof ones in under 5s even baby aloofs you just need to sort them out and try and find a way to connect with them
. although DD did have teachers who didn't really know who she was especially in high school on parents night they would say all the right things but didn't really know who she was, Now dd2 EVERYBODY knows who she is,

Mrsjay-being gobby and contrary isn't being independent. 'Likes to do things her way' hmm I wonder how her teacher phrases that trait ?

I have one of each and the quieter one is better liked and happier with his life

'Likes to do things her way' hmm I wonder how her teacher phrases that trait ?

her teachers were kind about her and she always did what she was told and I was talking about quiet children are a bit more independant not gobby ones . DD2 is gobby and I find she is more insecure than her sister, she likes to be seen and heard not so much at school though ,

I think a fair, even-handed teacher will be able to work well with most personality types. I always made a special effort to bring the really quiet, compliant ones forward because I see lack of confidence as a huge problem that really holds children back.

I agree that the sneaky quiet ones are a pain though - they're different than the 100% compliant ones. They are pretty much the same as the gobby ones but they've learned to misbehave under the radar. There are two types of those children - one is the nasty bullying type who knows how to hide their behaviour in order to make other people's lives hell (very rare in younger children) or they're the abused, totally underconfident type who uses silent defiance as a way of asserting some sense of control over their world. They're very rare IME and are almost impossible to deal with because any attempt you make the get through to them will be met with the same passive resistance - it's like they have a massive wall that you can't get over, either because they have a genuine superiority complex where they believe themselves to be in the right all the time, or they absolutely will not trust you due to being treated horribly in the past.

I taught one child who was the first defiant type - quiet and sneaky and the most incredibly narcissistic arrogant girl. She really was unbelievable and used to torture other children, so stealthily that it was impossible to pin anything on her. I absolutely loathed teaching her, and out of the hundreds of other children I would never say that about anyone else. 98% of the time she was quiet and unremarkable but the other 2% consisted of tearing children down, trying to undermine my authority, total and utter defiance and then a feigned lack of understanding as to what the problem was. She would be about 15 now. I wonder what sort of woman she will turn out to be

I'm always intrigued by this. We want good babies who don't cry, are fed when they're fed, do as we say, amuse themselves happily etc. But then we want bright. articulate adults who are able to speak up and act independently when appropriate and engage with people.

DS has always been treated like a mini-adult, like we would any other person, and I hope we're laying the groundwork for appropriate risk taking, challenging authority respectfully and negotiating. That sounds really poncey given that he's 18 months but the 'good' kids get trampled and it can take obnoxious ones a long time to get the social skills to make their obnoxiousness acceptable.

I do think it's important to teach children to play by the rules, but to do it sensibly. So if a rule seems unfair or arbitrary, challenge it, but do it in a way that won't automatically label you a troublemaker. A very hard skill to teach, and dependent on personality to a certain extent I think.