To think the 'stand your ground' law in America is horrendous.

[Loveweekends10]

I hope we never adopt that law which has led to an 8% increase in homicides in some American states.

No, I have no problem with killing in self defence, if it is necessary, as an absolute last resort. I would like to think if someone was directly threatening to kill myself or my family I would do that. What I have an issue with is people saying they would kill to protect property, which I think is frankly ridiculous.

I would not go racing downstairs with a gun, to shoot a burglar, I would do everything I could to keep out of their way. I would also consider it would be far more traumatic for a child to see a parent shoot someone dead, than to have their things stolen.

The police seem to favour it as a method. In fact, as long as it is in the name of anti terrorism, why is it ok to do whatever means you need to? Why are the lives of people in a public place more valuable than people in their beds. I think more people are affected and traumatised by anti social behaviour and burglars than terrorists.

People get killed breaking into people's homes.

You run the risk when you break into someone's home that it will not be someone like you N0tinmylife it will instead be someone like me. Someone who is a lot nastier and less inclined to give a fuck why they are there.

This is easily avoided by not breaking into someone's home.

I have no problem whatsoever with someone killing an intruder, none at all.

Scary isn't it? That some people just don't care.

theodorakis terrorists kill hundreds of people at a time, I hardly think that compares to burglars, who while I agree they are scum, and they cause a huge amount of trauma to their victims, they do not generally physically harm, or kill them.

"You don't need to shoot a man dead to defend your home."

You may well do. If you stand between a burglar and your possessions with a gun and tell them to leave, they may respond with "give me X or I'll kill you."
If they then make a move to take your possessions by force it could well be necessary to shoot them to protect yourself and your property.

When was the last mass terrorist attack? Years and years ago. It's fine to hold the Olympics and have snipers on the roof but not to shoot someone who may well kill an innocent person in their own home. Illegal war and Olympics makes for double standards.

Morloth, it is people with views like yours that make me very glad we are not allowed to own guns in the UK! Anyway I am off now, I have RL things to do.

Not allowed doesn't mean people don't. They just do it illegally and are therefore more likely to get away with it.

MayorQuimby - thats not quite what I meant. I'm not willing to become a murderer to save a tv.

If it's to save a life, yes, certainly. But not possessions.

And I think in fear, people will get trigger happy. Whats to stop someone shooting someone as SOON as they enter the door.

Last week when the 'self-defence against intruders in your home' hit the headlines again I was listening to 5Live. A woman phoned in with her story of a burglary. They lived on a farm and so had licensed firearms in the home. She woke up to hear a burglary going on downstairs and she was terrified (as you would be). She got her dc into a bedroom, locked the door and went to get a gun, then locked herself in with her children. Then someone knocked on the bedroom door - she said she was so terrified that she very nearly just shot the person through the bedroom door. She seriously considered this, but thought better of it. And thank god she didn't - because the burglars had run off when they heard movement upstairs and it was her neighbour knocking on the bedroom door - he had seen the burglars running off and was checking if they were ok.

If she had shot her own neighbour through the closed door, would that be covered in the SYG law?

That scenario is far more likely than the woman successfully killing them, Sabrina

"I would not go racing downstairs with a gun, to shoot a burglar, I would do everything I could to keep out of their way."

And I think most would do the same, I know I would.
However if someone else is confident of their ability to protect their belongings and the burglar makes it so that the necessary force proves fatal then I would support their right to use it.
This is not a gun issue for me, the test still remains reasonable force given the circumstances which the person acting in self defence believes to be true.
So spotting an intruder, sneaking up on them and shooting them in the back would not be reasonable as it would be more than was reasonably necessary to protect yourself.
Seeing an intruder walking towards you with a knife and shooting them would be reasonable IMHO

I agree with ghostship as well - there was a case I heard years ago of a person knocking on a front door, late at night, to ask for directions because he was lost.

The owner of the house shot him through the closed door. This was apparently acceptable according to the US self defence laws, because the man was on his property. Whereas in the UK it would have been treated as murder.

I wouldn't go hunting them out. If someone was in my room about to rape me or kill me or hurt my family I would shoot him. If he put his hands up I would not. Neither would i shoot him as he was running away. Maybe just in the foot.

" - thats not quite what I meant. I'm not willing to become a murderer to save a tv.

If it's to save a life, yes, certainly. But not possessions. "

But that's my point. The way that these things become an issue of using fatal force is because the criminal is willing to use force themselves to take the tv.
So if a burglar is looking to steal and they are confronted and try to flee then shooting them in the back is not reasonable force.
However if they try to take the tv anyway and the owner does not passively allow them for the sale of their own safety that is how it becomes an issue of " tv versus the burglars life" which is a misleading way to frame it.
Because its almost certainly going to be because when met with resistance the burglar or thief resorts to threat or use of force to execute their crime which necessitates self defence to prevent the commission of a crime.
Nobody is saying shoot all burglars, but where they become a threat then yes absolutely defend yourself where necessary.

I am not sure what she would have been charged with. I think she would probably be charged with Manslaughter but then be able to argue that she was acting in self defence.

The fault would still lie with the burglars by creating the situation.

The firearm was legal - are you suggesting that farmers should not be able to have guns either?

I wouldn't risk my life pointing a gun at a burglar unless he was threatening me or my family. I don't think I would even do it to protect my dogs. But, if he were, I would kill him with no qualms whatsoever.
He can have the TV or the car or whatever but I will seek him down and put dogshit through his letterbox.

i think guns make the SYG law complicated

if you take away the ability to shoot, then SYG is pretty straight forward ?

I would also beat his head in with a golf club. Is that preferable?
Have you ever had a gun put to your head? It isn't nice.

me theo?
not to my head, no

im not being anti-gun owning though...just saying...you cant accidentally stab your neighbour through a door etc...so guns and the ability to shoot at longer range confuses Self-Defence

^I am not sure what she would have been charged with. I think she would probably be charged with Manslaughter but then be able to argue that she was acting in self defence.

The fault would still lie with the burglars by creating the situation^

That doesnt bring the innocent neighbour back though. She wasn;t acting in self defense. She shot through the door not knowing for sure if it was the burglar or not.

Laws like this let people act without really thinking through what they are doing.

She had the gun legally - that I have no problem with. (Or do I? I'll ponder that a bit more).

The fact is that an innocent person could have easily lost their life that night when he was trying to help. I'm sure his loved ones would have been much comforted that it was the burglars fault, not hers! The woman in question rang the show to demonstrate just how scared she was during the burglary - so scared that she very nearly shot an innocent person through a door.

Had someone attempted to break the door down to get to her and her dc then imo she would have been within her rights to defend herself. But as goldship said, guns can make a person trigger happy and innocent people end up dead. This doesn't generally happen if you're brandishing a golf club.

I hate guns. Nasty things.

x-posted with Goldship there :)

I have heard of several incidents where a person has believed there was a burglary about to happen, and it has turned out to be a drunk person who has wandered into the wrong house by mistake, is it OK to shoot them too?

How does one "wander" into the wrong house?

Depending on where you live it does happen surprisingly. It wouldn't here where I live, but I know places it can and does, especially in america!