To think the 'stand your ground' law in America is horrendous.

[Loveweekends10]

I hope we never adopt that law which has led to an 8% increase in homicides in some American states.

No it was mumsnet who posted it for me!

Of course I was partly joking but it was based on the fact that innocent kids have already been shot!

Did I really need to explain that.

And no children have ever been shot accidently or otherwise in the UK?

Yes morloth they have but we don't have a law that lets the gun toting meathead off that has done it! On the basis that they were protecting their possessions.

Another quick google suggests that it is up to a jury in the UK to decide as to whether the force used is considered 'reasonable'.

CPS

Doesn't look that different to me.

From that link:

'Retreating: Failure to retreat when attacked and when it is possible and safe to do so, is not conclusive evidence that a person was not acting in self defence. It is simply a factor to be taken into account. It is not necessary that the defendant demonstrates by walking away that he does not want to engage in physical violence: (R v Bird 81 Cr App R 110).'

How does this differ from the Stand Your Ground law?

Doesn't look that different to me.

Very different. If someone shoots someone in the UK (talking public, not SWAT) then they will be arrested, evidence will be gathered and sent to the CPS who will decide if there is enough evidence for a trial.

In the Trayvon case the police did not make an arrest and just accepted the shooter's words.

US Gun laws may seem alien to you but, at the end of the day, unless youre living here, they're none of your frickin business!!

I'm sorry that I am concerned about children being shot for very poor reasons, it doesn't matter whether that is Trayvon or Malala, I wat to live in a world where children can go to school and sweet shops without fear of being shot.

I want that to be the situation in the whole world. I don't understand why anyone would want otherwise?

Yes that happens all the time

So we are speaking specifically about Trayvon Martin?

In which case:

He is apparently NOT using the Stand Your Ground Defence

So OP, it is in fact the American Right to Bear Arms which you object to?

There isn't a snowball's chance in hell that the Americans would rewrite their Constitution to make England of all countries happy.

It isn't gonna happen.

It's always the children. How many children get accidentally shot per year? Didn't a little boy get shot on his way home in the
UK a few years ago? At least if people are using a legal gun you can hold them accountable unlike the staffie wielding 14 year olds I have encountered who have guns and get away with it because they live in a no go area.

Zimmerman! self defence?! he followed Trayvon with a gun...if he gets off, there will rightly be hell to pay

but i do see the sense behind stand your ground....just think they is massive potential to abuse them

And there was that poor little girl in her parent's shop as well wasn't there?

The words Plank Speck and Eye come to mind with this thread.

MN just luuuuurves an Americans are thick and violent and aren't we all so much better in the UK thread.

"abuse them"??

i meant abuse the 'stand your ground' law...

Thousands of Iraqi and Afghan women and children have been shot and your country supports that. What's the difference? Britain is a very wobbly glass house, shit education, negligent healthcare and no social control in some areas and rationed funds spent on an illegal war.

Why the hell should we bow down to a country which is no better than many and worse than so many of it's European neighbours.

and do not for one minute think that the gun "problems" in the UK are not partially down to the idiot media with all the "our boys" stuff. War and soldiers are glorified and that is an image that people have grown up with constantly in the last 10 years. I am not anti army, I have nothing against any individual soldier for being noble and doing their job (except the ones who have abused it obviously) but I don't really want to be in either US or UK during this war. At least the Americans are brave enough to admit they are at war and, more importantly, have the support of the majority, rightly or wrongly.

Zimmerman! self defence?!

Well yes, if his version is accurate then it would be self defence. According to him trayvon was assaulting him in a manner which caused him to fear for his life, as has been backed up by witness reports.

If his version is not accurate then there's no way it's self defence, it's just murder.

However at this stage it's pretty unclear which version is accurate and the truth most likely lies somewhere in between.

ok so it's murder. Murder happens everywhere, with legal and illegal guns.

The only concern I have is if it puts homeowners/tenants at higher risk of injury or death. I don't care about the lives of those who think it's acceptable to break into other's houses - more scum off the streets if they're killed tbh.

mayor i imagine Trayvon would say he acted in self-defence

can you self-defend self-defence?

Zimmerman wasnt even arrested after he killed Trayvon

i dont think its about the value of a life being more or less than possessions

if someone has broken into your home, for example whilst your family is asleep...I would worry that they may harm my children

I dont want to wait until they do harm my kids to be able to self-defend. Attack is the best form of defence in these cases IMO, and I would certainly not hesitate to bash them on the head with whatever was to hand

"mayor i imagine Trayvon would say he acted in self-defence

can you self-defend self-defence? "

I have no doubt he would. which is why my point wrt to that case is that it's a poor one on which to base a debate regarding self-defence on as there's not a consensus as to what the accepted facts are.

As for self-defending self defence, I'm not familiar with us law, but in uk/Ireland it's accepted that you can't self induce a situation which would then require you to use self defence and then rely on it as a complete defence (it may mitigate sentencing or reduce murder to manslaughter )
Also burglary has been accepted as an aggressive act so a burglar could not rely on it as a complete defence either

Having a look at that CPS link it really does look like it depends on 'who started it' as to whether you can claim self defence.

But then there is also the bit about 'pre-emptive strikes' where it says you don't have to wait to be struck first in order to defend yourself.

Complicated.

I don't know enough about the Zimmerman/Martin case to really have any opinion on whether it is appropriate for him to argue self defence, as I said upthread from what I have read it doesn't sound like it, but I don't know what actually happened.

I am really not seeing a great deal of difference between the Florida Laws and the UK laws.

Whether the force is considered reasonably or not would be decided by a jury, even if the force included deadly force in the UK.

Zimmerman not being arrested is a seperate issue as to whether the Stand Your Ground Law is 'horrendous'.

Zimmerman did kill Martin, that was never in question. So I think under the law he should have been arrested and tried.

If I found a burglar in my house and I had the means to, I would probably choose to kill him. Not only because I would not risk wasting precious time by trying to guess whether he is there to burgle, rape or kill me or my family, but also because a house that gets burgled once sees its probability of being burgled a second time skyrocket. I don't want to feel unsafe in my house, and the burglar had the choice to NOT commit a crime and endanger my life.

So yes, his life would bear the lowest consideration in my list of priorities, to be brutally honest.