Schools rewarding badly behaved children

[blondiemommy]

I am sick of DS's school rewarding the children who are frequently naughty, unruly in class and cause misery to the other children. Ds has been having bother with such a child at school, I have had to visit his teacher twice this term to explain how upset he has been. He was withdrawn from playtime for a week for hitting and punching my DS. First week back in the playgound and he is rewarded star of the week. It stinks! What about the children who are well behaved and try on a daily basis? I understand the school are trying to encourage good behaviour but I think it is demoralising for the others.

Once: I think they are pulling a fast one by saying that your son has to be failing academically before he can get a statement. We were initially told that about DS (non-genius but bright). He got 32.5 hours of one-to-one help in the end. Hope all goes well for your boy.

Low expectations = realistic expectations of a child with behavioural difficulties.

They learn as they get positive reinforcement until it becomes a habit, then the expectations are raised.

You have to get them there in little steps, or you might never get them there at all.

'My son is cleverer than your child.Doesn't matter what your child's IQ, my child has a higher one. I can assure you of that. '

I've only been on MN a week but I think this is quite possibly the most childish thing I have ever read on an online forum!

I am abivalent about this.

There was a child at ds's last school who had behavioural problems and he was very agressive to other children. The school tried many strategies to deal with him, including (eventually) rewarding good behaviour. The psychology behind this was that this child had come to believe his own bad press and had fallen into a cycle of being the bad child, so rewarding the good behaviour might lead to more positive results. I understand this and the child in question was not an evil child, he just needed help.

However...

The rewards did not change his behaviour at all. He never was "bad" all of the time and continued not to be so.

Other children were confused by it. Why was it that if they hit someone, they were in trouble, but if X didn't do so he got a treat?

Finally, in my own son's case it contributed to him becomming depressed (at 8). This child had bullied him for many years. Ds became unable to sleep at night as he was afraid of us all being murdered by burglars. When I reasoned with him that such things almost never happen and we have policemen etc to stop bad people, his response was "no one could ever stop X - bad people are never punished".

Its not writing the "naughty children" off. I'm not saying that and I don't think the others are either. The problem is that there should be a fairer system. Yes the children with behavioural issues should get rewards to encourage them. I just feel the children who always behave should be given rewards too otherwise it is not fair to them and gives them the wrong message.

"5 yr olds are the world experts on 'that's not fair!!'" Agree completely.

Extra help and praise should be given when needed to children with additional needs, however a star on a chart of a child who doesn't have these needs but tries just as hard to behave isn't a massive ask.

Each according to their need really, and quieter well behaved children need praise and attention in school too.

All hail the smartest child in Britain!

Nay, the world!!

Oh joy. Yet another thread labelling misbehaving (and more often than not have sens) children as naughty. disclaimer not all children with sen are naughty, just as not all non-sen children are angelic
How dare they be rewarded for anything good that they do. Best to keep punishing them until they understand social concepts. this type of attitude scares the hell out of me.

and we need a 'rolls eyes' emoticon...

I actually think all these punishment/reward systems seem quite complex for little kids. It seems that whichever way you do it, it's not good for someone. DD's school operates a system where the only reward is a sticker assembly once a week and they do seem to reward the better behaved children pretty consistently (DD has had tons of stickers) but when you talk to some of the consistently worse behaved children sometimes your heart just breaks for them. There's a kid in her class who hasn't had a sticker in over a year and he really wants one but his actual home life sounds terrible (I only know because he tells me things sometimes when I go in to help). He's a really nice little boy who wants to be good but finds it almost impossible, having never really seen what good behaviour looks like at home. But he is trying. I think he should be rewarded for trying against the odds, even if the actual result doesn't look that great as yet. I was on another thread earlier about trying hard at reading and the consensus seemed to be that you reward your kids for trying not punish for getting it wrong. This kind of thing is just the same writ large. Are the 'naughty' kids not to be afforded the same level of respect for attempting something a bit beyond them as the 'good' ones?

And even when you don't have a horrible home life to take into account, you know, some children just find it easy to behave well and some don't. DD happens to be a teacher's dream pupil in that she LIKES sitting down, paying attention, working hard, is friendly, helpful, likes her school etc. It's nothing I did! She just came that way! I would imagine that a larger percentage of children don't just come that way, humans being what they are...

And is it right that she should be rewarded for what comes easily to her? She's not especially trying to behave well, she just happens to be a quiet, sedentary child with an interest in reading etc. The kid whose main interest is in shouting and making a mess may be trying much harder with a bit less to show for it (in educational/behavioural terms).

I don't think the world is split into naughty and good children. Some children have difficulities learning social rules for one reason or another. Even the nicest of children can be nasty at times. Children are immature by definition and do make mistakes.

To never reward a challenging child demonises them and makes them more oppositional defiance. Giving points for positive behaviour recongises when a child has done something well.

I think that primary school teachers need to make sure that the "good" children get to be star of the week as well. Also children need to understand why they have been chosen that particular week. Ie. its their work being praised rather then them. It is destructive to describe a child as "clever" as it is to describe them as "bad". Children need an enviroment where hard work is praised rather than "being top".

I have both sides on that issue.

I remember dd1 and her friends (in year 1) discussing whether it was a good idea to be naughty one day to try and get the star of the day. They decided it wasn't worth it, but it was an interesting discussion. I sat outside ready to go in if the discussion went towards being naughty, but wasn't needed. Star of the day (they could only get in once a week) went consistantly to the 4 children in that class who weren't consistantly good. Occasionally they remembered to give it out on the 5th day as well.

Dd2 (year 4) still gets frustrated about being rewarded for being "not bad". Dd1 got a lot of awards, so I think she eventually stopped minding, but dd2 seems to be the child who's constantly overlooked at school. She generally achieves similar to dd1, but with less flair, and more fuss, so I think her achievements are often overshadowed by the fuss.

Ds (year 1) is the one who gets the rewards. They've started a point reward system in class, which they can get one every day to get a (small) reward on Friday. His comments on it. "If I get one before break. That's good because I don't need to worry about being good for the rest of the day. If I haven't got one before break, I make bad choices after break. Then I am making good choices after lunch and I'll get my magic point after lunch for not being bad then."
He had had all the school "big" awards since they started awarding them, the only child in his year to have done so. Most haven't achieved more than one.

It is good for him because if he thinks it's in the offing he can be very good. But it does take more effort for him to remember to listen, sit still, not poke the person in front, shout "poo" at an inopportune moment... than it did for the girls.

I feel quite embarrassed when he comes out with another award. I remember how dd1 in particular used to feel it was unfair, and feel for the children who always do what he gets rewards for.

But otoh, if it means that he works better in class, he's not disrupting the other children, or taking up the teacher's time to sort him out, it does mean that the other children get more of the teacher's time. And he is inspired by having an award, so you could argue it's worth it.

I think he gets more awards than most because he can be beautifully behaved, and he can be dreadful. The other children in his form that tend to make "bad choices" I think are more consistant if that makes sense.

Also, I'm not sure DD's stickers are particularly encouraging her to go beyond her comfort zone. I'd like to see her get a sticker for playing a rowdy game in the playground, quite honestly. It would be of more benefit to her long term than yet another for good listening or whatever.

From an adult perspective YABU. We can see as adults that it is only a sticker/bouncy ball/certificate/handshake in assembly or whatever it is and accept that it is a positive thing if it helps a child to behave and teacher to stay sane.

But from a child's perspective YANBU. Children think everything that isn't strictly equal must be unfair.

When I was at primary school there was a 'gold book' (A4 notebook covered in gold paper!) in which the teachers could write names of children in their class who had been very good that week and it would get read out in assembly. I was never in that book and the 'horribly naughty boys' (as I called them aged 6) were always being put in it. It's a tiny tiny thing and was probably a great way of motivating challenging children but the fact that I can still remember my indignation and disappointment shows just how much it annoyed me as a little girl.

I can see wht you mean OP, but also understand the reasons why they do it.

Any positive behaviour from very disruptive children is rewarded for a reason.

Yes, it doesn't seem fair that other children aren't rewarded for everyday good behaviour but surely to some children 'good behaviour' comes naturally and they behave well for reasons like pleasing the teacher, behaving the way thats expected, 'doing what they are told' without the need for other 'rewards'.

Lancelottie, would you mind me asking what you think would be a fair and workable solution? I'm not meaning to be challenging and I'm not asking you to solve the world's woes but I'd be interested to hear from you as a parent who can look at this from both sides.

I always just thought the fairest would be "Well done X, you did very well this week as you showed a lovely improvement in behavior!" Then, "Well done Y, once again you have shown excellent behavior this week!"

Perhaps I am over simplifying....

Ds was commenting on this the other day. He got a sticker because he did something kind and his friend got a sticker because he had not done anything naughty! Ds was musing that if he was really naughty one day he could then get loads of stickers the following day by being good! He decided t wasn't worth it as he didnt want to upset his teacher! He is 5 but he can already see how it works.

I was the kid at school who was always good and was just left to it. I always found it extremely demoralising and it affected my confidence as I felt I wasn't worth anything

There is nothing wrong with kids having an individual reward system. It is the class wide reward systems that I don't like because each child has a different standard to set and that can be confusing for them.

The downside of rewarding everyone is that the kids see through that too. We don't have many reward systems at our school but the games dept do a star of the week for Y3 and 4. The rule is that we have to give it to a different child every week and that every child must have it at some point, however contrived we have to make the reason for it.

It usually takes the children about 8 weeks to suss this out!

Socharlotte - why shouldn't I point out the only bloody strength my DS has right now? The only thing he has going for him is a totally astronomical IQ.

He is pretty shit at everything else. Can't ride a bike, can't make conversation. Can tell you all about the Flying Scotsman or a Pendolino, but can't tell you his name. Got the crap beaten out of him at his school on Friday.

Yeah... I'm really there bigging my son up. Actually walking through the door to school is a flipping massive deal to my DS. And one I won't make him do again.

Dcs new teacher groups the kids according to the table they sit at, naughty children are obviously kept apart on separate tables. They get stars for various things (academic and behavioral) throughout the week, no demerits, and at the end of the week the table with the highest number of stars gets a group prize. It works brilliantly, the bolder kids can't drag the others down but they are encouraged to do well to aid their friends, the good kids get the rewards they deserve.

What is all this rewards/stars/stickers stuff anyway? I don't remember any of it when I was at school - or maybe I just didn't get any!

I wonder how helpful it is for anyone tbh. Especially rewards for 'trying' rather than actually achieving, and of course then achievements should really be their own reward.

I understand that disruptive children need more incentives/encouragement to be good but an awful lot of consistently good children are over looked and some decide that maybe being good isn't as rewarding as being bad. Thankfully my parents told me that star awards and house points were not important in life and only there to encourage the naughty children to try harder so I stopped giving a shit about it in primary school before I implemented my be bad to gain rewards plan. But started to resent it again when I got to secondary school

Quite often the only acknowledgement of a good childs behaviour is during parents evening.

Secondary school was the worst for me though -> Oh, we're going to have to refund you the money for the field trip as the bad kids in the year groups reputation has proceed them so the trip is cancelled. Oh, we feel like rewarding the disruptive member of the year group with a trip to Altern Towers but don't worry you can come to an early morning continental breakfast in the language department and learn more French...

You are all going to have lunch time detention due to being such a disruptive class today... Errm the good kids weren't disruptive... I walked out as did several other consistently well behaved kids who had had enough of being punished for being good

Yep it always seemed to be reward the bad and ignore the good. Oh, and the majority of the bad could be good when they felt like it and when friends X and Y where expelled

In my son's class, where there was a great deal of bad behaviour. A new teacher started and after a few attempts came up with a reward system where each table had a jar and each time someone behaved well, a piece of pasta was added to the jar. Each time someone behaved badly, a piece of pasta was removed from the jar. At the end of the week there was a system of rewards, depending on how much pasta was in the jar. Negative pasta meant being sent to the headteacher.

By the end of the week the system had been completely subverted and there was a race to the bottom, with subsequent sendings to the head teacher, who just got fed up of them and sent them back.

After that, things just got worse :(