to not understand the words "I'm not a feminist"?

[bushymcbush]

I've seen this countless times on MN and I really don't get it.

Actually I've heard it quite a few times in RL too.

So, to those of you who are so keen to communicate your non-feminist standing, could you please explain to me which part of 'total equality between the sexes' you disagree with?

Alternatively, you could (gently) explain to me which part of that generic description of feminism I seem to have misunderstood?

Me who said that? I who said that?

Blame it on the morning sickness.

I think it was OldLadyKnowsNothing and me who decided we'd be bad Feminists, long ago and far away on another thread, possibly in FWR..
You know, the battered old camper van variety, with a hotch-potch of repairs and uncertain paintwork. Doing our best according to our principles.
Not a specific brand, flavour or attributable philosophy, no mentor-like names to drop with quotations and the like, just feminists.
Plain and simple.

Grovel, good point about thatcher.
As I said before, living 35 minutes from the Saudi border makes it much easier to accept the feminist label warts and all.

living 35 minutes from the Saudi border makes it much easier to accept the feminist label warts and all

A very interesting point.

How nice that we women in Western society have the comfort to choose whether we are feminist or not. We've already made the really important gains for ourselves - we can vote, go to university, own property, get a divorce, apply for any job we like - I mean, so what if millions of other women in other countries don't have those rights? Why should we call ourselves feminists for them?

I'm really beginning to wonder if anyone knows what feminism means ? Are we all arguing about different things here ?

I cannot begin to understand why, what I understand as feminism, is rejected by so many women. It's all very well to point the finger of blame at FWR but to reject such a positive movement on the basis of a couple of heated threads is unfathomable to me.

To those who don't reject it on that basis and support feminism but won't use the label, what it is about self identifying as a feminist that is so repugnant to you ? Do you not see that there is merit in identifying as a feminist or are there other negative connotations that I'm simply oblivious to ?

Although those women in turn might look at the squabbles and the shibboleths laid out here and think WTF?

and wonder why we were not campaigning as vociferously on the WR abuse issues that are killing thousands across the globe and have done for centuries.
Why are we not spending every iota of effort on those? Why the infighting and insults over nomenclature?

Bar a couple of very early posters, I honestly haven't seen anyone (including myself) say they are not a feminist on this thread

I feel I have very clearly said that I am a feminist (and a very active one at that) but that:

a) I don't really like to label myself (be that label feminist, socialist, lib dem voter, marxist, tory or whatever)

b) I find feminism a fairly narrow label as I want equality for all people (and therefore for women, making me a feminist) but do not necessarily and automatically prioritise equality for women / womens rights over other disadvantaged groups or individuals and therefore feel it would be disengenuous to primarily identify as a feminist per se.

c) I feel some of the more extreme views of the broad and nuanced church that is feminism may alienate some women from feeling comfortable with identifying as feminists. As evidenced by women on this thread saying this is the case. I, for example, was pretty horrified and disgusted by the transgender thing and some of the "feminist" attitudes that were quoted.

and

d) that I feel some of the posters on MN who self-identify as feminists whilst being incredibly unpleasant towards other women who do not agree with them may also alienate women and make them less likely to wish to identify as feminists. Which is a shame really and it seems to me there are some posters on MN who preach feminism but certainly don't practice it, and actually, actively harm it. Also as evidenced by women on this thread saying this is how they feel.

I don't think I can make myself any clearer, but no doubt someone will prefer to read the above as:

"I'm not a feminist me, I love the menz sooooooo muchand I don't want them to go off me and think I don't shave my legs. I'll have the vote and shit though but I think feminism is unattractive to men so I won't say I am one.".

Catgirl, I understand that but can I ask what you think that refusing to use the label feminism achieves and whether by refusing to use the label, it somehow diminishes feminism ? Or could be perceived to do so.

Eg, you've stated that you're active in supporting feminism so if a young woman who heard you talk asked you if you were a feminist, what would your response be ? My own take on it is that by denying it, it gives a message that being a feminist is somehow negative whereas I think it's a label that women have to take back and use positively.

I don;t refuse to use the label, have never said I refuse to use the label and clearly do identify as a feminist, just not as my primary political focus

As I have already said on this thread, if asked "are you a feminist?" I would say something along the lines of "Of course I am. Why would I not want equality for women? Although, I actually believe in equality and improved rights for all people so perhaps it's a little too narrow a description."

I don't think that gives a negative message. Just an honest one.

Mmmm ... wine and cheese ...

[drools]

Catgirl I'm not suggesting it should be your primary political purpose. And if you do identify as a feminist when asked, I apologise for arguing with you.

My problem is with those who actively disassociate themselves from feminism like it's a dirty word.

Thanks for your really nice post upthread, bushymcbush. It meant a lot .

No need to apologise Bushy - I didn't think you were arguing with me, just discussing in a very polite and reasoned manner

This is how this thread reads.

Q: If you don't identify yourself as a feminist, why not?

Loads of people give their personal reasons, and suggest that others may feel the same way.

Well, those reasons aren't good enough. You should call yourself a feminist,

A) to help the oppressed women in the middle east
B) to show your appreciation for the feminists who've gone before and won the rights you enjoy today
C) because you actually are one, so I'm going to call you that anyway.

Seems a bit crazy to me. I think if so many women feel that mainstream feminism is represented by the extreme views they have come across on MN and elsewhere, it's not surprising they don't want to be part of that, and it indicates a problem with how feminism is being represented by feminists.

It's no good telling people who have no knowledge of current feminist thinking and don't call themselves feminists "well, if you just start calling yourself a feminist, then tell people that you don't identify with the extreme views, feminism will have a better name".

That's like, for example, the Christian church saying, "well, you believe in God, so you're kind of one of us already, even though you don't call yourself a Christian, so if you could start calling yourself a Christian and outlining for others how you don't agree with the fringe views, that would help us with our PR."

No. If the church has a PR problem, they first and foremost need to address the people who do call themselves Christians and make sure that they're not misrepresenting the core beliefs.

Same goes for feminism.

We seem to keep coming back to this idea of extreme views. (And a general acceptance that they are extreme.)

Somebody said earlier that they didn't wish to cite what might be considered an extreme feminist view so as not to take the thread off on a tangent. Problem is though that by not actually mentioning what the issues are, this discussion remains a vague 'accusation' of extremism that is pretty subjective.

There are lots of people who might think that advocating a Nordic model for dealing with prostitution is extreme for example. (Plenty would argue that it is pretty mainstream considering it is an approach that has been adopted by mainstream governments.)

Same goes for quotas for political representation - lots of people think it is an extreme suggestion whilst plenty others argue that many mainstream countries and governments have adopted electoral quotas (around half the countries in the world use them).

Notafoodbabyanymore I'd disagree with your church analogy.

It's really more like someone who says they follow Jesus, but not calling themselves a Christian. Actually, if they're a follower of Christ, they are a Christian, because that's what a Christian is. Yes, others may misrepresent the faith but that doesn't change what you are and the word in our language which we have for it.

If someone was to not identify as being (for example) 35, or middle class, or left-wing, or pro-choice, or Asian, or lesbian, or atheist - even though she exactly fits the definition of those things - then she'd be incorrect. Other 35-year-olds may not look the same age, other middle-class people may make different choices, other atheists may be very pushy with their belifs. But that doesn't change you being 35/middle class/atheist.

I'm a Christian who rejects fundamentalist or extreme views. If we waited until others stopped "misrepresenting the core beliefs", we'd have a long wait! Why should I sit back and let those who I feel misrepresent Christianity take ownership of its name? No, I care more than that.

"Why should I sit back and let those who I feel misrepresent Christianity take ownership of its name? No, I care more than that."

No one is saying you should. Just that we choose not to.

"those of us that don't identify as feminists are being told what we should be doing" Where?

Really? It's the whole reason for this thread for a start!

So if someone said this

"I'm only attracted to people of the same sex. But I'm not gay, because some people who call themselves gay take part in protests which are too militant for me".

Would you believe them that they weren't gay?

If they didn't want to call themselves gay I wouldn't argue with them about it. Why would I? It doesn't affect me in any way what they want to refer to themselves as

I do believe that women and men are equally important and should have equal opportunity to achieve what they want to achieve but I also believe they are different and have different needs and different skills.

Surely it's more a case that different individuals have different skills, regardless of whether they're male or female?

I hope those who don't support women's rights are not themselves taking advantage of anything which previously had to be fought for by feminists, such as equal pay, voting, taking the pill if they're not married, property ownership if you are married, the right to not be discriminated against at work, attending a service run by a female vicar, or gaining a degree

Wow!
No one on this thread, to my recollection has said they don't support women's rights.

Are you really saying that non feminists shouldn't have the benefits of modern society that you speak of?

Well done on proving that this thread IS telling people who don't identify with feminism what they should be doing

That's not a very feminist statement, is it?

Do people now understand why some women don't want to be linked to feminism?

"So if someone said this

"I'm only attracted to people of the same sex. But I'm not gay, because some people who call themselves gay take part in protests which are too militant for me".

Would you believe them that they weren't gay?"

No, this is not the correct comparison. The correct comparison in that case would be a woman who refused to call herself a woman ("being gay" is not a social movement), which is not what we are discussing here.

If you wanted to form a correct comparison that was relevant for this thread, you would need to use, for example, a gay person who did not identify with the "gay rights movement". Which, by the way, there are many out there. As I said before, having some ideas in common with an ideology or a movement does not magically turn yourself into a "member of the club". Being a feminist, in my opinion, requires an active involvement in the movement and a commitment to it. That's why I am not a feminist.