to not understand the words "I'm not a feminist"?

[bushymcbush]

I've seen this countless times on MN and I really don't get it.

Actually I've heard it quite a few times in RL too.

So, to those of you who are so keen to communicate your non-feminist standing, could you please explain to me which part of 'total equality between the sexes' you disagree with?

Alternatively, you could (gently) explain to me which part of that generic description of feminism I seem to have misunderstood?

"I am bewildered by women who support feminism and see the need for it but refuse to identify as feminists themselves on the basis of being afraid of fringe views."

I don't believe anyone has spoken about being afraid of fringe views, I'm not entirely sure what you mean by afraid of them.

For me it has always been that I find it easier to distance myself from those views early on in a conversation by using a different label, rather than letting a conversation go off on a tangent about whether or not I support the more extreme views.

The reason I am not naming the more extreme views that I disagree with is because it is almost guaranteed to take this thread off on a tangent. Which isn't actually helpful to this discussion.

"If we cannot even stand in support of these women"

Why do we need to call ourselves feminists in order to support these women? And is it only possible to make sacrifices and put yourself at risk for women's rights if you call yourself a feminist?

limited I hope my posts aren't included in those you feel are telling you how you should behave? I don't think anyone should have to moderate how they express their views just because it makes others uncomfortable

"who became quickly frustrated that you refused to roll over and agree with them"

Who are you referring to there? I don't think anyone is looking for agreement, just trying to explain views when asked. Any frustration is due to explanations not being understood.

I hope those who don't support women's rights are not themselves taking advantage of anything which previously had to be fought for by feminists, such as equal pay, voting, taking the pill if they're not married, property ownership if you are married, the right to not be discriminated against at work, attending a service run by a female vicar, or gaining a degree.

emboosa since you asked, yes they were, but it's all part of continuum and I found worraliberty's'posts worse for drawing irrelevant comparisons and imagining her personal experience defined the debate as well as being deliberately obtuse and goading. Also another poster (be along with her name later) who was flippant, rude, dismissive and arrogant and naive enough to believe her personal experience in male-dominated industry trumped everyone else's.

Read this thread, then think whether you're still happy not to be a feminist

The poster was catgirl. I find it so much clearer when people say what they mean.

History of Feminism

"Most western feminist historians assert that all movements that work to obtain women's rights should be considered feminist movements, even when they did not (or do not) apply the term to themselves."

My personal experience as a woman manager in an Arabic oil company with hundreds of employees under me has definitely helped shape my opinions. As did living in Bangladesh and Africa and to a lesser extent, Texas.
You bloody try working in oil and gas before you patronise it. Actually by far the most difficult nationality I work with in terms of sexual crap (as in "banter" and bullying) have been dutch. Maybe it is just because they have spent so much of their lives offshore.

EmBOOsa you don't have to call yourself a feminist, of course. However if you support equal rights for women, then personally I do think you are a feminist.

Definition of feminism: 1. the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men. 2. an organized movement for the attainment of such rights for women.

I'd say you were in agreement with 1, even if you're not part of 2.

It's in the same way that if someone didn't eat meat or fish, then I'd consider them to be a vegetarian, whether or not they called themselves one.

Any frustration is due to explanations not being understood

No, there hasn't been any misunderstanding as far as I can see. Frustration has been due to failure to back down and agree. The long tangent about terrorism was not a misunderstanding. Smashing was making a bloody good point - that there is no useful comparison to be made between extreme terrorist acts and extreme talking / ideas.

eBook, I agree with you about voting etc. I also find your statement about feminism useful. I don't know much about the academic side of feminism, I have avoided it as much as i can.

"I hope those who don't support women's rights"

I know I've never said I don't support women's rights.

So I'm a feminist whether I am happy to be or not?

But EmBOOsa, you bring me straight back to my original problem - if you DO support women's rights, why aren't you happy to be a feminist?

I believe in peaceful means of protest and diplomatic negotiation. Ergo I'm a pacifist.

I believe in looking after the planet, it's multitude of life and it's precious resources, ergo I'm an environmentalist.

I sit on the fence re religion, ergo I'm an agnostic. But I respect anyone's right to practice their chosen religion (as long as no one suffers in the practice) and welcome the diversity of cultures and ideas available to me, ergo I'm a humanist.

Oh, and I'm a feminist.

I own all these 'labels' and more (although I am defined by none of them). But I'm not afraid to stand by them, if asked.

Quite simply, if I'm in a situation where I have to label myself I'd prefer a label that doesn't require either justifying why I don't agree with the fringe views, or explaining which views I do agree with. Saying I believe in equality in those situations is far easier than saying I'm a feminist. Saves going off on tangents.

Having been in situations where my views have been shot down due to someone saying either "you are a feminist therefore you believe in x, therefore you are mad and not to be listened to", or "you aren't a real feminist as you don't believe in x and therefore have invalid views", I've just decided it's easier to say, "I believe in equality". People then tend to have to look for another way to discredit my opinions rather than me handing them a clichéd stick to beat me with.

Perhaps that cliched stick might crumble to dust if more of us actually spoke up about what we believe instead of leaving it to the loony tunes (sorry rad-fems - I await my flaming) to speak for us. And perhaps more pertinently (given what prompted me to start the thread) stop actively disassociating ourselves from feminism.

And then, perhaps we can turn back the tide of sexualising and pornifying everything to do with the female in the media.

Not read it all, its just the same old.

because some of the extreme nutters on here have put me off ever uttering the word 'feminist'

this is it for me though.

especially as I got a flaming the other day for DARING to defend sexism against men.

Maybe, but I choose to spend my time/energy on other things.

EmBoOsa, did I miss where you said whqt it is that you feel feminists are forceing you to do?

You obviously did seeker.

But for you I will reiterate. I got the impression that I was being told I should be calling myself a feminist, but others have reassured me that isn't what they intended and I apologised. Hope that sorts that out.

It's a British thing. Your average Brit (male and female IME) may agree with a certain way of thinking but back off public association with its protagonists if they perceive them as becoming too strident. It's uncomfortable.

Thatcher got re-elected 3 times because the great British public thought that the country was going to the dogs. Could you find many people who said they were going to vote for her? Could you hell!

I don't know if "strident" is the right word. I looked it up - "Loud, harsh, grating, or shrill; discordant." I certainly don't like "shrill" in this context.

"I'm another who totally considered myself a feminist before Mumsnet. Now having spent a bit of time in the feminism section...no thank you very much"

It would be really helpful if you could say specifically why?

don't agree with that at all^

sorry x posted

limitedperiodonly you're entitled to you opinion if you think my comparison was irrelevant. It was relevant to me - therefore I posted it.

Re Turnip, again imo she was being deliberately dense and seemingly refused to so what so many others could clearly.

People are sill reading this thread and saying they don't understand why so many posters won't label themselves feminist...despite many people giving their reasons.

I don't think it's going to be a subject everyone here will ever agree on but there you go.

refused to see

It was me that said that Seeker :) Just marking my place...I will come back in a bit and explain.