to not understand the words "I'm not a feminist"?

[bushymcbush]

I've seen this countless times on MN and I really don't get it.

Actually I've heard it quite a few times in RL too.

So, to those of you who are so keen to communicate your non-feminist standing, could you please explain to me which part of 'total equality between the sexes' you disagree with?

Alternatively, you could (gently) explain to me which part of that generic description of feminism I seem to have misunderstood?

[Notafoodbabyanymore]

Sorry eBook, just on my break at work, so might not be a very complete response.

FWIW, I am a Christian too, and I agree with what you are saying, but I don't think you quite got the point I was trying to make.

Several people on this thread seem to be ignoring the fact that feminism as a movement has a bad reputation. Whether that's deserved or not is beside the point. If so many women are of the opinion (right or wrong) that Feminism represents not only equal rights and opportunities for women, but a whole swathe of other viewpoints that they find unpalatable, or disagree with, you can understand why they might say "well, I support women's rights, but I'm not a feminist".

And, if this is the case, you can't just say, well, you should call yourself a feminist, or stop buying into the stereotype, or whatever. So many women are saying that their conversations and experiences with self proclaimed feminists have given them a certain negative idea about what feminism represents. So there's a problem with what's being communicated, or how it's being said.

I haven't explained that very well, but I'm rushing. Sorry!

[GhostShip]

Good post ^

[eBook]

aurynne no, being gay isn't a social movement. The comparison I'm making is that both being gay, and being a feminist, have a dictionary definition.

Clearly the person is gay because it can be deduced from what they said. They fit the definition, i.e. someone who's only attracted to the same sex.

The dictionary definition of a feminist is someone who believes women should have equal rights to men. So if you believe that, you're a feminist.

[eBook]

Yes feminism is also a social movement, in its other dictionary definition.

1. someone who believes women should have equal rights to men
   
2. a social movement
   

You only have to fit one of the definitions in order for it to apply to you.

For example the word "gift"

1. a present
   
2. a talent
   

If something fits one of the above, not necessarily both, then it is a gift.

[eBook]

So there are various combinations.

If you are 1, or 2, or you believe 1 AND take part in 2, you're a feminist.

Only if you fit neither 1 nor 2 are you not a feminist.

[OTheHideousManateesOfMadness]

"So if someone said this

"I'm only attracted to people of the same sex. But I'm not gay, because some people who call themselves gay take part in protests which are too militant for me".

Would you believe them that they weren't gay?"

That's a poor example. More accurate would be 'I'm only attracted to people of the same sex, but I find Peter Tatchell and other high-profile gay rights activists a bit annoying and don't want to be associated with them. So I don't go round calling myself gay in case people think I'm one of those activist types.'

In fact there are lots of gay people like this.

[seeker]

"Several people on this thread seem to be ignoring the fact that feminism as a movement has a bad reputation. Whether that's deserved or not is beside the point. If so many women are of the opinion (right or wrong) that Feminism represents not only equal rights and opportunities for women, but a whole swathe of other viewpoints that they find unpalatable, or disagree with, you can understand why they might say "well, I support women's rights, but I'm not a feminist".

I keep asking, on this thread and others, and nobody will ever tell me precisely what these unpalatable viewpoints are. What is it that feminists believe that other women disagree with? (and anything to do with pubic hair doesn't count!)

[catgirl1976]

Seeker it doesn't actually matter what viewpoints some women find unpalatable.

One woman may find supporting abortion to term extreme, another may not.

It's totally subjective.

[catgirl1976]

Plus - wanting to isolate the specific issues suggests that all the women who have said "I do not want to be associated with certain extreme views" all think the same views are extreme and agree on what those are. They probably don't - we are talking about individuals here, not a group with a single voice.

[catgirl1976]

And yes to what Raspberry says - in some cases it may be tone not belief

To use the Peter Tatchell example, it would be like a gay person saying "I agree with what Peter T says but I don't like the way he delivers that message. I find him too aggressive, hence I don't want to identify myself with him"

[seeker]

Doesn't it matter? I am just bemused by all the women who say something like "I'm not a feminist because I don't agree with the things feminists believe" but don't say what those things are. I am a feminist, and I can't think of a single thing I believe that would make another woman say "oh, well, I refuse to call myself a feminist because I don't agree with Seeker on x issue."

I'm not a Conservative- but there are probably some conservative policies I agree with. I identify myself as a supporter of the Labour party, but that doesn't mean I agree with everything that Labour stands for - or, more importantly, everything that other Labour supporters say. But I'm still a Labour supporter.

So why does disagreeing with one thing a feminist says mean that you won't call yourself a feminist?

[catgirl1976]

It doesn't matter because they are specific to each individual woman.

You would have to ask each of them in turn.

[aurynne]

I don't find feminism unpalatable, and if I was a feminist I would not be put off by extremists within the movement (as I am not put off by extremists in other movements I am part of). In my case at least, it is much simpler really... there are other movements I happen to advocate for right now, and feminism is just not one of them. There are children starving, or working for a pittance in sweatshops, girls being burnt with acid, blind people who can't afford a simple surgery to give them back their sight, animals being treated with cruelty... the lists of worthwhile causes to fight for is endless, really, and a person can't be an advocate for every single one of them. Every person devotes themselves to particular ones. And we have the freedom to choose which ones. So no, regardless of how much some people here moan and stump their feet, I'm still not a feminist.

Why are some of you guys so intent on telling people what they are? Don't you think the women you are talking to are intelligent enough to know what they are, so that they need you to tell them? Not a very feminist behaviour that one, sister :P.

[seeker]

That's interesting, aurynne. So for you, you can only be a feminist if you are actively campaigning?

For me, feminism can be about that. And certainly was when I was a young woman. But mostly it's about how I live my own life, how I bring up my children, how I interact with others and make decisions for my family. It's about making sure that I know what the people I vote for think about issues that particularly impact on women. And it's about not being afraid to speak up, on line or in real life when anti woman/ anti feminist/victim blaming views are expressed

And I have to say that to my mind, many of the causes you mention are to a greater or lesser degree, feminist issues!

[aurynne]

Interesting point of view seeker... I guess I don't call myself a feminist because I don't give priority to women's issues over any other person's issues. I don't feel more inclined to speak out when anti-woman views are expressed than when anti-men, or anti-animals, or anti-gay views are expressed (and I speak strongly against all these views, believe me). So same as I don't consider myself an animal rights activist (even though I adore animals and I don't want them to suffer), likewise I don't consider myself a feminist, even though I know am equal to any other person, man or woman.

I don't know whether or not you can "only" be a feminist if you're campaigning, but that is the way I determine whether I call myself something or not. Perhaps the only thing we are dissenting about here is how each person judge themselves in several areas of their lives, and how they choose to express their belonging or lack thereof to particular movements or ideals. In which case, none of us are really wrong, we simply have different ways of measuring. I really have no problem, and will throw no tantrum, if someone else considers me a feminist even though I don't. I just find it funny that other people are really that bothered by the opposite situation!

[grovel]

Is it too simplistic to say that there appear to be feminists and Feminists with a capital F?
The former don't define themselves as feminists but agree with the broad principles of Feminism (equality etc).
The latter put Feminism at the forefront of how they live their lives and fight for the cause wherever they see a problem - whether it affects them directly or not.

[EmBOOsa]

"Doesn't it matter? I am just bemused by all the women who say something like "I'm not a feminist because I don't agree with the things feminists believe" but don't say what those things are."

In this particular discussion what those things are isn't actually the important part. I haven't gone into it because I suspect it will take the thread off on a tangent of either, "well I don't know any feminists who believe that" or the thread will suddenly become all about why you should agree/disagree with that view.

Still I keep coming back to, why does anyone care what I label myself as?

[Notafoodbabyanymore]

Why doesn't anything to do with pubic hair count?

If I've read correctly (and I apologise if I haven't) some people have been told point blank by self proclaimed feminists that if they remove their body hair, they are only doing so because they've been brainwashed by the patriarchy to think that they have to to attract men, and therefore they are not "proper" feminists.

Can you really not understand why that might make some people feel like they don't wish to identify themselves as feminists?

[WorraLiberty]

I totally agree with everything you've said Notafoodbabyanymore

You sum it up rather nicely for me.

[Notafoodbabyanymore]

Why thank you Worra.

[catgirl1976]

Twirl again as you've summed it up well for me too

(which I'm greatful for as I just get frustrated and become incoherent with nnggst)

[WorraLiberty]

Yes keep twirling

I want to see if it's possible to drill yourself into the ground