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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to not understand the words "I'm not a feminist"?

414 replies

bushymcbush · 14/10/2012 22:51

I've seen this countless times on MN and I really don't get it.

Actually I've heard it quite a few times in RL too.

So, to those of you who are so keen to communicate your non-feminist standing, could you please explain to me which part of 'total equality between the sexes' you disagree with?

Alternatively, you could (gently) explain to me which part of that generic description of feminism I seem to have misunderstood?

OP posts:
EmBOOsa · 15/10/2012 22:58

"I'm not telling anyone what to do and I don't believe I have posted as such. I'm just bewildered by the notion that a woman who identifies with feminism generally would compare feminism to extremist movements or distance herself from the feminist movement on the basis of a few fringe views."

Glad to hear it, I apologise for misreading your posts.

That's fair enough that you are bewildered by it, I am equally bewildered by why it matters to anyone else what I choose to label myself. I guess it's best to just agree to disagree.

"Is there an equalist movement with a concrete political analysis, literature and aims?"

Does there need to be? I think probably I'd step away from that label too if there was, once you make something a (sort of) organised group you'll always get fringe views. And the fringe views tend to get the most attention. Personally I prefer to just get on with what needs to be done rather than have to spend time debating on whether I can still call myself whilst not holding the fringe views. At the moment I only use the word equalist as shorthand for "I want equality for all".

"And this "anyone else who requires such improvement" would be.....????"

The menz of course. Or, more seriously..

  • the disabled
  • the mentally ill
  • any minority ethnic group
  • any "alternative" sexualities
  • the poor
  • the elderly
  • the young
..and so on and so forth
Cozy9 · 16/10/2012 03:56

Why do poor women and children suffer more than poor men?

CheerfulYank · 16/10/2012 04:07

I'm another who totally considered myself a feminist before Mumsnet. Now having spent a bit of time in the feminism section...no thank you very much.

theodorakis · 16/10/2012 07:45

I am quite the opposite, i would have said I hated all the dungarees and lentils before i joined MN. In fairness I did have a mother who embraced feminism as one may take up a new hobby in the early 80s but she dropped it when it went out of fashion. For a few years all her friends left their husbands and used to do stuff like naked rebirthing between 2 sofa cushions and shoplift bras and burn them in street protests.
Looking back she was ace and I had a few teenage years of near freedom because she was so busy. As I said upthread, she now can't switch in the tv without her man.

catgirl1976 · 16/10/2012 08:13

Feminism. When you are calling other women idiots because they don't agree with you.......you're doing it wrong.

SmashingTurnips · 16/10/2012 08:23

EmBOOsa apology accepted although TBH I'm very surprised that you misread my posts to the extent of them reading to you as though I'm telling people what to do.

I am bewildered by women who support feminism and see the need for it but refuse to identify as feminists themselves on the basis of being afraid of fringe views. I really really am. I don't get the point of it and to a certain extent it seems a rather dissonant position and one that depends on other women standing up and being counted and speaking out in individual support of the movement. I think that is why I care at all about this discussion. There are women who make themselves targets due to being 'out' as feminists and making our collective voices heard. If we cannot even stand in support of these women then I'm not sure we are very deserving of their energy and struggle.

And yes, a political movement does need analysis, literature and aims in order to actually achieve anything - otherwise it isn't a movement it is an academic subject. Such is the case with Egalitarianism - it is a trend of thought, a political philosophy, a subject to be studied at university.

Feminism is by nature and definition a grass roots movement. It is a movement born out of lived and shared experience, solidarity and support.

I'm also utterly bewildered by this swerving away from 'labels' indeed I'm a little Hmm at the term label in and of itself as used here. It comes across as an entirely apolitical position and erosive of solidarity and the strength of numbers.

I don't agree that fringe elements of all movements receive the most attention. I doubt there are many people in the UK who know very much about the fringe views held in feminism. (I don't doubt that many people could tell you about the stereotype of these fringe views however.)

We have had plenty of posts on this thread citing these 'fringe views' as a reason for distancing oneself from feminism (even if one believes in the movement) but no actual concrete example of what these views might be.

If people are apolitical or don't believe in the need for solidarity or don't actually agree with the need for feminism, I can understand why the wouldn't wish to call themselves feminists. For a woman who does see the need and benefits of feminism, but disses the movement, bangs on about extremism or refuses to be even in spoken agreement with the movement by identifying as one of its number, well, that strikes me as attempting to gain a free lunch. And I think it is very destructive (even though that may not be the intention).

catgirl1976 · 16/10/2012 08:37

Free fucking lunch? Angry

Words fail me.

And you wonder why MN "feminism" makes some women (who probably actually are feminists) want to distance themselves from the label

Way to advance things and foster solidarity. Great job.

theodorakis · 16/10/2012 08:38

Turnips, what you just said makes sense to me.

Blistory · 16/10/2012 08:43

There is a bit of a tendency for women to dismiss feminism when what they mean to do is dismiss a particular feminist.

I don't reject my political beliefs just because I don't like the policitian who happens to be the leader of the party I support.

Seriously, what shame is there in being a feminist ?

SmashingTurnips · 16/10/2012 08:47

Catgirl - feminism has achieved massive gains for the women it has been able to touch and make a difference to. For those gains to have been made, women had to stand up and be heard - often to the detriment of their careers and even their safety. I think we are all happy to accept the gains are we not? If we accept and benefit from the gains without supporting the people and movement who have been instrumental in achieving them, then yes, I think that is accepting a free lunch.

I can see why it happens in a sexist society but I think it is a major obstacle to feminism currently.

Thanks theodorakis (hope you feel ok today.)

catgirl1976 · 16/10/2012 08:48

Oh has it I didn't know that.

Could you be any more patronising?

catgirl1976 · 16/10/2012 08:51

I do bloody loads to support feminism. All day every day. I just find it too narrow a label to describe my political beliefs
.
I'm sorry you don't feel able to accept that people can believe in a broader spectrum and not support feminism at the same time.

SmashingTurnips · 16/10/2012 08:53

Catgirl, I'm just attempting to expand on why I used the term 'free lunch' - you posted an angry emoticon at the term so I thought I would explain a little more what I meant by it.

Your above post is a personal attack. Fair enough if you disagree with my opinion, I'm all ears on why you think it is incorrect - I CBA to get into personal attack though.

catgirl1976 · 16/10/2012 08:56

Now if you'll excuse me I have to host a seminar ay an event designed to encourage and assist women to suceed in a male dominated and very tough industry and look at ways we can make it more accessible. Then I'm going to eat my free lunch.

But you carry on alienating people from feminism on an internet forum

SmashingTurnips · 16/10/2012 09:01

Can one not be a feminist (i.e. a person who supports feminism) and other things at the same time though?

Like Harriet Harman - she's a feminist but also a Labour politician. She does lots for women's issues but also for the poverty stricken/people in need of equal opportunities in general. It doesn't have to be an either/or. Feminism isn't exclusionary.

limitedperiodonly · 16/10/2012 09:04

emboosa I don't think I tell other women how to be. If I did I'd expect to be challenged and would welcome it if I was. I'd pull up a bully lecturing other women too - though I respect people enough to let them stand up for themselves unless they ask for help.

What I do see repeatedly on these threads is other people telling me is how they think I should behave and principally how I should be constantly mindful of how I'm coming over when expressing mainstream opinions in moderate language.

I take responsibility for many things. Responsibility for the unreasonable feelings of others is a burden I will continue to resist.

Btw seeker, I agree with you again and many others.

SmashingTurnips · 16/10/2012 09:04

Good luck with the seminar catgirl.

I have to go and do work stuff too (run a company that gives work opportunities to women) so no need to be snarky about internet forums, etc.

theodorakis · 16/10/2012 09:15

Thanks I am feeling so much better today and going home! Will miss the hospital though, feel very institutionalised.

theodorakis · 16/10/2012 09:18

Cat, If you have a transcript I would love to read it or see a video. I will not nick it I promise, I always cite and credit my sources. As we are in the same industry I know where you are coming from.

bushymcbush · 16/10/2012 10:20

SmashingTurnips Having started this thread myself, debated for a couple of hours then gone off into RL for a couple of days, I've come back to read the ensuing discussion.

Can I just say how much I admire the strength and eloquence of your posts here and the unwavering logic of your arguments. You have at times been a lone voice on this thread, put up with a lot of goading and insults from others who became quickly frustrated that you refused to roll over and agree with them, all the while remaining very cool headed and polite yourself.

I couldn't have done it myself - I'm not nearly intelligent or eloquent enough.

Thank you!

Grateful OP

OP posts:
HappyHalloweenMotherFucker · 16/10/2012 10:25

I agree, bushy

theodorakis · 16/10/2012 10:27

I think it has been a civilised discussion on all sides. It has made my hospital stay fly by and nice not to have ended in a bundle (see upthread for definition).

catgirl1976 · 16/10/2012 10:37

I will pm you some slides theo

aurynne · 16/10/2012 10:44

A "feminist" is defined as "an advocate for feminism", which implies support and involvement in a movement. I am not a feminist, because I am not part of that movement, am not implied in it and I am not an advocate for it.

Some of my opinions coincide with some of the feminist ones. Likewise, some of my opinions coincide with particular political parties regardless of whether I vote for them or not. I even coincide in some opinions with the Bible and the Catholic Church, even though I am an atheist. But having similar opinions does not mean I am part of a group or an advocate for it.

I appreciate and understand the importance of feminism has had for me as a woman, and if I had been born some decades ago I probably would have chosen to be a feminist. But I haven't. Today, in my personal circumstances, there are other causes I have decided to advocate for. It would actually be an insult to feminists to call myself one when I have no commitment to that movement.

There OP, now you know how people can call themselves "not feminists". In fact, I find your inability to understand it a bit immature.

theodorakis · 16/10/2012 10:48

Thanks Cat! Maybe one day we will meet through our jobs!