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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think that Freemasonry should not be allowed to exist?

573 replies

StickMeToTheMan · 06/10/2012 14:59

... or that members should declare their membership - especially those in positions of power - police, SS, politicians etc?

I am just flabbergasted that this is allowed in this day and age. Take a look at the JS scandal and the potential involvement of the masons, and surely no-one can dispute that this old boy network is dangerously shady.

Can anyone explain to me what it is really for, and if membership to any secret society is justifiable in this day and age?

AIBU?

(Namechanged as have been discussing on FB)

OP posts:
OneMoreChap · 09/10/2012 18:55

Charbon in most Lodges, everyone will be master eventually. There's usually a dozen or so Past Masters about. It's really not that sort of organisation.

I'm unsure why anyone would think it's attractive to men in positions of power; the unemployed, streetcleaners, council workers and teachers I've kknown aren't exactly men of power - but they have been Master.

garlicbutty · 09/10/2012 19:23

I think your last paragraph above, Charbon ("stretching credibility") is total and utter common sense. Protests to the contrary just make the institution look shifty. Comparisons with the RC's frothy denials of its systematic abuses from the Magdalen Laundries to priestly paedophilia are extremely tempting.

OMC, Charbon covered your street-cleaner very adequately with "those who are unlikely to achieve power at work and seek an ego replacement through the lodge hierarchy".

CoteDAzur · 09/10/2012 19:33

"an organisation that people have to pay to join and is attractive to men in positions of power"

Most organisations have some amount of annual fee so that expenses can be paid. This is no different.

Freemasonry is an intellectual pursuit, as well as a journey where an individual seeks to better himself. It doesn't really attract people in positions of power, except those who wish to nurture their intellect and develop as a person.

Charbon · 09/10/2012 19:46

OneMoreChap the experiences and perspectives you are writing about on this thread are I have to say, wholly unlike those of other freemasons I've encountered, past and present. I'm not saying that you are being disingenuous, but that your own individual experiences cannot speak for every freemason's at every lodge. Posters who are saying that their own experiences of freemasonry have been malevolent, are as valid as those who say theirs have been benign. I have certainly had the misfortune to work in organisations where freemasonry has been a corrupting influence and have worked with colleagues who have admitted that the hierarchy in their lodge has got in the way of them making impartial decisions.

As garlicbutty says, I acknowledged the attraction of Freemasonry for those who are unlikely to achieve power in other areas of their lives. Those individuals are by definition, less vulnerable to corruption because of their lack of power and influence.

Charbon · 09/10/2012 19:47

It doesn't really attract people in positions of power

Now that is disingenuous.

claig · 09/10/2012 19:48

'It doesn't really attract people in positions of power, except those who wish to nurture their intellect and develop as a person.'

Was that Kenneth Noye's motivation?

Qwertyytrewq · 09/10/2012 19:56

OMC

Posters won't be happy until you admit that the Masons are a shady cabal, with members in power who use their influence to help fellow Masons in their nefarious activities.

If you could throw in a bit of devil worship and a belief that lizards rule the world it would be appreciated.

I've mixed with men ranging from heads of banks, teachers, policemen, builders the whole range, in old-boys clubs, sports clubs, everywhere and I've never heard a single mention of Masons.

Where are you meeting them all?

LineRunner · 09/10/2012 20:15

All I ever wanted all I ever wanted was for someone to say it would be a good idea for mason to acknowledge mason at council meetings where other people who knew each other would do the same.

CoteDAzur · 09/10/2012 20:17

LineRunner Grin

CoteDAzur · 09/10/2012 20:24

Since many here don't know much about Freemasonry and snigger at the replies of those who do know, there isn't much more to do for you to learn about it than to...

Read A Book.

OneMoreChap · 09/10/2012 20:27

Charbon might I politely enquire how many Freemasons you think you have met?

You said wholly unlike those of other freemasons I've encountered, past and present. I'm not saying that you are being disingenuous, but that your own individual experiences cannot speak for every freemason's at every lodge.

I'd hazard a guess that it's fairly likely I have met a very great many more Freemasons than you have, in a number of countries, Masonic Constitutions and a very great many Lodges. I accept that I cannot speak for every Freemason, at every Lodge.

Might you accept it is just possible that I may be able to speak for more than you can?

It doesn't really attract people in positions of power

Now that is disingenuous.

You're getting fairly close to personally insulting.
What would you describe as someone in a position of power?

Having established that, consider how they would like to be under the command of said street cleaner/teacher - because they are. Within a Lodge, you have the power of the position you are granted by the Master. It is likely to take you years in a popular Lodge to attain the Chair. Certainly 10, quite likely 15+... does that sound quite so attractive?

CoteDAzur · 09/10/2012 20:35

I do understand the misconception that Freemasonry attracts people in positions of power, though.

The only time anyone's Freemasonry is talked about is when they are in a position of power. (Nobody is interested in finding out if a 25-year-old store clerk is a Freemason). By that time, this powerful person has probably been a Freemason for at least a decade, possibly two, meaning that the "attraction" happened a long time before the "position of power".

Qwertyytrewq · 09/10/2012 20:43

Linerunner.

Why shouldn't everyone who had connections with someone else on the Council be open about it?

So if two people went to school together or play golf together or are members of a website and communicate together on it, shouldn't they be open about it?

A bit like when you're on a jury, and you know someone in the court.
Conflict of interests and all that.

LineRunner · 09/10/2012 20:51

Yes, exactly.

garlicbutty · 09/10/2012 21:40

Yes, Qwerty. Absolutely.

This has been covered several times through the thread, and our freemasons have said their situation is different. Or not different. Or have simply ignored it.

The CRUCIAL point is that, when several participants in a decision play golf together or are related by family or go to each others' barbecues, play in the same orchestra, whatever: these facts are already known or, if not, are easy to check. Not so with a club that prides itself on its secrecy.

garlicbutty · 09/10/2012 21:41

Sorry, not secrecy - secrets. And privacy. (cba to have this argument all over again)

LineRunner · 09/10/2012 21:45

It seems I cannot say this enough times.

At Planning and Licensing Meetings I have been to, people DO say (for noting) that they know an applicant or know someone on the Committee or someone giving advice or giving a deputation. This might be through friendship or family or work or clubs.

The masons don't.

Charbon · 09/10/2012 21:45

How many freemasons I've met compared to how many someone else has met is completely besides the point. This isn't just about me either. There have been numerous posts on this thread, some commenting on negative experiences and others with positive impressions. All of those points of view are as valid as eachother. Personal experience as a freemason (or as the partner of one) is of course powerful as a personal testimony, but that needs to be counterbalanced by acknowledging the very human tendency to defend an organisation you have an investment in and derive benefit from in some way, like I said in my first post on that thread.

Although one of the difficulties of freemasonry is with the secret membership list, I have personally met High Court Judges, Council leaders and Councillors, Chief Executives of both private and public sector organisations, senior police officers, Queens Counsel, solicitors, Chairs of School Governing Bodies with responsibility for admissions (foundation schools) and Editors of Newspapers who were open about being freemasons. All men in positions of power. Several of those individuals have cheerfully agreed that when in junior positions in their organisations, they were attracted by the promise of getting ahead in their careers and in the days when an invitation or sponsor was necessary, had been reassured by that sponsor that it was a good career move.

As for your last question OneMoreChap my one and only personal experience (in that it affected me) of how someone who was subordinate in the lodge hierarchy to someone less powerful at work, was when two such individuals both reported to me at work. One was a middle manager who reported to me, with a junior manager reporting to him. A disciplinary issue arose that I expected the middle manager to deal with, but completely aberrant to his usual performance in this area, he was resisting tackling it. Eventually it came out that he had concerns because the junior manager was a) a fellow freemason at the same lodge and b) was more senior at that lodge. A wholly unacceptable conflict of interests. I have however spoken to other freemasons (some now retired) who have admitted that there were occasions when they turned a blind eye to a potential conflict or wrongdoing, because of the hierarchical politics at their lodges.

I accept as valid other people's experiences if they have never come across such conflicts of interest. Indeed some of the senior people I've referenced, as far as I know didn't do anything more unethical than use freemasonry for career advancement.

I understand why some of you are defending freemasonry and apart from what is genuine belief, your motivation for doing so. But I'd personally find your views much more credible if there wasn't an insistence that you know everything there is to know, that masonic lodges aren't attractive to men in power or seeking it, or that your organisation isn't vulnerable to corruption.

CoteDAzur · 09/10/2012 21:50

"At Planning and Licensing Meetings I have been to, people DO say (for noting) that they know an applicant... The masons don't."

How do you know that some of those people who say they know an applicant aren't Freemasons and know that person from the lodge they frequent?

Qwertyytrewq · 09/10/2012 21:50

There only known if you know them.

This thread has gone round and round, because people tend not to change their opinions.

I'm going to give mine which is as worthless and pointless as everyone elses on an anonymous Internet forum.

250,000 Masons in the UK,and like the rest of society, I reckon mostly harmless.

CoteDAzur · 09/10/2012 21:53

"All of those points of view are as valid as eachother"

How very democratic of you. Basically, in your world, the worth of actual knowledge is no more than that of hearsay, prejudice, and in some cases, downright paranoia.

When seeking information in physics, do you listen to a physicist instead of a layman? Or are everyone's "points of view" as valid as each other there, as well?

rubberglove · 09/10/2012 21:53

I admire the posters taking the time to debate this politely.

The freemasons are a secret society. I completely disagree with their existence, regardless of any charity work they do. I cannot fathom why they have to be secretive other than to promote exclusivity.

Secrets, on the whole, breed dysfunction and corruption. A load of old shite, I am afraid I am not so polite.

It puts me in the mind of a dysfunctional family. Stay in the fold, don't speak about the family to others. We will look after you as long as you accept our rituals.

LineRunner · 09/10/2012 21:54

Because they say things like, 'I'd like to declare for noting that Mrs Goggins is my boss's sister.'

CoteDAzur · 09/10/2012 21:57

" organisation isn't vulnerable to corruption."

You don't mean "organisation", which can't be corrupted. You mean people, and everyone is vulnerable to corruption in various degrees.

One can only hope that people who repeat, debate, and strive for better morals would be less susceptible to corrupting influences, though.

CoteDAzur · 09/10/2012 21:58

Line - And what if they say "I'd like to declare that Mr Goggins is an acquaintance of mine" or "... is a friend of mine".

How do you know that they don't know each other through Freemasonry?

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