to think that Freemasonry should not be allowed to exist?

[StickMeToTheMan]

... or that members should declare their membership - especially those in positions of power - police, SS, politicians etc?

I am just flabbergasted that this is allowed in this day and age. Take a look at the JS scandal and the potential involvement of the masons, and surely no-one can dispute that this old boy network is dangerously shady.

Can anyone explain to me what it is really for, and if membership to any secret society is justifiable in this day and age?

AIBU?

(Namechanged as have been discussing on FB)

[Charbon]

No, what I am saying is that the views of the freemasons that I have spoken to are just as valid as OneMoreChap's because they are all men who are freemasons. OneMoreChap's testimony doesn't negate theirs.

And everyone else's experiences as a partner or family member of a freemason are as valid as eachother's. On this thread not all of them have been positive, but many have.

And everyone else's personal views about their experience of freemasonry are as valid as eachother's.

[CoteDAzur]

"The freemasons are a secret society."

No. Freemasonry is an esoteric society.

(3rd time I say it on this thread & hoping it will be the last)

[CoteDAzur]

Charbon - This brings us to OMC's question: Just how many Freemasons do you know?

[Charbon]

No, I meant organisation, but organisations of course comprise people. Many organisations make themselves vulnerable to corruption because of their own internal procedures and lack of vigilance. Most modern organisations identify at a strategic level their vulnerable areas of business/operation and the people within that organisation who are most vulnerable to corruption. That risk assessment was clearly not done in relation to for example, Kenneth Noye, Jimmy Savile or Gary Glitter, who were all freemasons.

A sensible freemason might agree that any organisation that thrives on secrecy, is comprised of numerous powerful men and has in the past suffered from allegations of improper conduct, needs to undertake a risk assessment and review its procedures.

[garlicbutty]

3rd time I say it on this thread & hoping it will be the last

I hope so, too. The distinction seems more important to you than to anyone else. Pedants' Corner is >>>> that way.

It's safe enough to say that a group which goes on and on about its secret arts and hidden mysteries is secretive ... a more specific term than esoteric, I pedantically believe.

[rubberglove]

Cote, one of the meanings of esoteric is private, secret or confidential, if you want to be pedantic.

It is certainly an exclusive organisation and in my opinion, a bullshit excuse to indulge in the weaker side of the human condition.

[rubberglove]

The weaker side being the desire for exclusivity, power etc. Humans do it in many shapes and forms, which brings a sense of irony to the Freemasons I feel. It really is just the same old bullshit...

[Qwertyytrewq]

I know why the Freemasons aren't popular on MN, too similar to Mouldies?

[rubberglove]

Another example of the same old, we are slaves to it.

[OneMoreChap]

Charbon

Many organisations make themselves vulnerable to corruption...

Kenneth Noye, Jimmy Savile or Gary Glitter, who were all freemasons...

I think you're making your position abundantly clear

A sensible freemason...

OK, that's past the line.

You are offensive. I have been polite, you have not.

I think we will not convince each other of anything particularly since you appear to dismiss all that I say to you. You get another - "I shan't waste my time any further engaging with you."

Well done.

[OneMoreChap]

LineRunner
At Planning and Licensing Meetings I have been to, people DO say (for noting) that they know an applicant or know someone on the Committee or someone giving advice or giving a deputation. This might be through friendship or family or work or clubs.

Really? All of them?

The masons don't.
... and you'd know that because...?

rubberglove
I admire the posters taking the time to debate this politely.

Not much by what follows

The freemasons are a secret society.


Yes, the web sites, public buildings, tours, and application methods do smack of that, don't they.

I completely disagree with their existence, regardless of any charity work they do.

I'd suggest you don't join then...

I cannot fathom why they have to be secretive other than to promote exclusivity.

I don't understand why people follow Association Football; but then, we're all different.

Secrets, on the whole, breed dysfunction and corruption. A load of old shite, I am afraid I am not so polite.

I notice.
So, you disapprove of all privacy, or only that of others?

[LineRunner]

Well I know who the masons are because obviously they have told me elsewhere that they are masons. And that they do not have to declare it so they won't.

[Charbon]

Thanks OneMoreChap.

I'd find it absolutely heavenly if you stopped engaging with me. Really.

[OhDearSpareHeadTwo]

I know quite a fair number of people who have been or are masons. I've been invited to join a female lodge but don't have the time at the moment as I am heavily committed with Rotary (another organisation that lots of people seem to think is a secret society for some bizarre reason). I've been in our local temple (in fact we can see into the bathroom and kitchen from our house). I've been to several masonic events

All I can say is that all the masons I know are very unremarkable people who got into freemasonry as something sociable and charitable, not because they have any sort of power lust going on

[garlicbutty]

You can see into the temple bathroom?

[OhDearSpareHeadTwo]

That risk assessment was clearly not done in relation to for example, Kenneth Noye, Jimmy Savile or Gary Glitter, who were all freemasons

Surely in the interests of fairness to freemasonry you should point out that the vast majority of predatory paedophiles are not freemasons and that the vast majority of freemasons are not predatory paedophiles

[OhDearSpareHeadTwo]

Yes, garlic - it was only when I went to a quiz night at the temple that I realised that the window that always seemed to have a light in it was the ladies' loo !!!!

[Charbon]

Surely in the interests of fairness to freemasonry you should point out that the vast majority of predatory paedophiles are not freemasons and that the vast majority of freemasons are not predatory paedophiles

I can't do that though can I? The membership list is secret and there are paedophiles who've evaded detection. Just like I can't state with any accuracy how many freemasons I know, because I'm sure I've known more than just those who've been open with me about their membership.

I can only state my belief, which is based both on mathematical probability and my personal knowledge of self-declared freemasons. Which is that the majority of freemasons are not predatory paedophiles and the majority of paedophiles are not freemasons.

I can't know that though. No-one can.

[garlicbutty]

I was once instrumental in the discovery of a very malicious paedophile ring. It was international and used little boys as young as 3 The ring leaders used their ex regiment as both cover and network. The leader I helped to catch was, following a lengthy prosecution which was hampered by high-ranking Scotland Yard officials, given a suspended sentence by the judge who had also served in the same regiment ... I relate this story to illustrate the fact, which should be blazingly obvious to anyone who's had dealings with humans, that loyalty groups can be extremely helpful to criminals. It's both naive and stupid to believe otherwise.

I agree that people in public office should be forced to disclose their relationships. In private office, they should be required to - and often are. Surely public servants should be more discoverable than private business people, not less?

[hunton1]

Although I'm not a mason, my grandfather was and I've (very unofficially) seen his regalia. They're the epitome of a non-secret secret society, many lodges have websites with their lodge meeting dates for the next few years posted up, and indeed their lodges are proclaimed pretty obviously - the Southampton Lodge is next to the West Quay Shopping Centre and the words "Masonic Lodge" are carved over the doorway. They're fundamentally a bunch of (usually older) men who do a bit of a funny dance in private, have meals and do a lot of philanthropic work. There are plenty of books around, some of which are fairly dry but list the reality of lodge meetings and what goes on behind closed doors, and some of which are full of rather entertaining conspiracy theories. The Masonic Library in the London Grand Lodge is open to the public, which goes to show just how secret they really are.

It's an interesting organisation, they give millions to charity. In 2008 they gave half a million to the Scout Association, as well as substantial sums to Outward Bound, Barnardo's and various Air Ambulance Trusts.

Essentially they are a community who look out for each other. My grandfather for instance would go out of his way to get his photos developed by a Mason Chemist rather than the chemist on the high street. Similarly when he had a life-threatening blood infection, then had he died, there would have been a place at private schools for my mum and uncle funded by a masonic benevolent group, as well as some support for my grandmother. In some ways it's quite similar to the armed forces benevolent societies that help look after war widows and families. Indeed the MoD itself contributes to boarding school fees for children of servicemen (more often long-term commission than the short 4-5 year commission, and especially for kids who are at GCSE/A-level age and need a bit of stability, although the MoD also tries not to move people to new postings 6 months before offspring have major exams and suchlike if the parents choose not to go down the boarding route).

However, that loyalty only extends so far. It's pretty unthinkable that a lodge would cover up a crime committed by a member - in actual fact they'd be more likely to cast out a member who threatened to put a stain on their reputation and may well be the ones to report them to the Police.

It's really not that creepy an organisation unless you believe the hype.

As for the main objection, which seems to be one of corruption amongst politicians or those in public office, the Masons are a positively minor issue compared to the old boys networks that run through institutions such as the London Gentleman's Clubs, the Mason's just get attention and bad rap because they're "secret". Right up until you google them... you can find out more about the Masons on google than you can about Private Member's Clubs in London, the sort of places ministers hang out and rub shoulders in private.

[rubberglove]

Privacy is not the same as secrecy.

[WkdSM]

Publishing lists of members within a voluntary group - um, Data Protection or privacy laws?

Do the WI publish a worldwide list of members, do the Lions / Rotary / Round Table? If there was a law that we had to publish a membership list, then we would be honour bound to do this. But why just freemasons? I saw far more 'influence' being exerted on planning by the old boys network in the village I used to live in. And Round Table was specifically set up to foster business relationships between men - as well as raising money - yet no one seems to be saying they should declare membership at every opportunity.

Given that you can look up just about every ceremony on t'internet, the number of books available to buy (or borrow from your library), that Lodges (local and in London) are open to the public for tours, how secret are we really? One of the 'privileges' of freemasonry is that you can take part in the ritual - but this involves putting time and effort into learning what you should be doing.

Risk assessment - as with any voluntary club / social club - how do you carry out a risk assessment for what people do when they are not at the Club? As I have said the only time my DH has anything to do with kids through freemasonry (fishing with disabled kids) he has to have a CRB check.

Whilst I think we are all willing to agree that there have been freemasons who have not acted within the laws of the country - is this not the same for any group of people?

[OneMoreChap]

At nearly 600 posts in the thread if I could agree with what WkDSM says:

If there really is an issue with Freemasonry pass another law about it. Until 1967, Lodges had to provide to a local authority a list of members; 2000-2009 Judiciary details had to be provided. A parliamentary enquiry found no evidence of corruption.

Why should people disclose something that there is no obligation on them to disclose? Freemasonry has no objections to members voluntarily disclosing their membership - it's compulsion that many have issues with.

[CoteDAzur]

garlic, rubber, and others - The distinction between a secret society and an esoteric one isn't just an exercise in pedantry.

Secret society: It will not have a website. You won't know what it's about because nobody will tell you. You will not know where they meet, what their regalia, clothes, symbols etc look like. You will wonder if it even exists. (ex: Illuminati)

Esoteric society: It has websites with information, pictures, and even their address. There are zillions of books on its history, development, aims etc. You would know what it's about if you read a book. You know it exists. You know some members who say they are in this society.

The only thing you don't know is what its members see, hear, learn, and work on as they move through the levels of this society. Just as an outsider isn't told any of it, a Freemason isn't told what happens in degrees above his, either. That is the "esoteric" part of the society.

[MissWing]

both my grandads were freemasons. My maternal grandpa invited my dad to join (which he did not). the purpose of the freemasons is that no son (or daughter?) of a freemason would ever be unemployed. it's backscratching, nepotistic (new word do you like it?) jobs for the boys.