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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think that Freemasonry should not be allowed to exist?

573 replies

StickMeToTheMan · 06/10/2012 14:59

... or that members should declare their membership - especially those in positions of power - police, SS, politicians etc?

I am just flabbergasted that this is allowed in this day and age. Take a look at the JS scandal and the potential involvement of the masons, and surely no-one can dispute that this old boy network is dangerously shady.

Can anyone explain to me what it is really for, and if membership to any secret society is justifiable in this day and age?

AIBU?

(Namechanged as have been discussing on FB)

OP posts:
HellATwork · 09/10/2012 01:42

Confirmation of JS's link to Jersey child care abuse scandal have just been confirmed by the top investigator at the time:
www.guardian.co.uk/media/2012/oct/08/jimmy-savile-jersey-childrens-home

When the paedophile scandal broke with Pope Benedict his response to people that he not protect the priests from facing justice:

""From God comes the courage not to be intimidated by petty gossip," said Pope Benedict XVI, as he presented the accusations of the powerless as acts of aggression. In a moment beyond satire, the preacher to the Vatican household, one Father Raniero Cantalamessa, went further and compared criticism of the church's record on child abuse to "the more shameful aspects of anti-semitism". The powerful were now the persecuted. Their victims were the modern equivalent of the Nazis." www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/07/nick-cohen-jimmy-savile-child-abuse

Really hope the freemasons take the moral lead on this and that they start listening to people who are telling them that there are paedophiles in their ranks who are abusing freemasonry as an unofficial but extremely fruitful paedophile network - and as with the calls for the BBC to conduct a public and transparent inquiry they choose to do the same. It would blow any conspiracy shit out the water if they did.

HellATwork · 09/10/2012 01:43

Have to wonder what the "less" shameful aspects of anti-semitism are? None that I can think of, that's for sure.

adeucalione · 09/10/2012 09:35

OMC -

Brilliant job answering questions since Saturday with more patience than most would be able to manage.

I have no idea what anyone can say to people who believe that an organisation is secretive and then, when their questions are answered openly and honestly, intimate that the respondent is lying.

WkdSM · 09/10/2012 10:15

Sorry for missing out on some of the questions last night - had RL things to do (brushing dog, catching up on Strictly....)

The whole business networking isue has perhaps been misunderstood. If you were asked why you wanted to join a lodge, and said it was purely for business networking, then you would be told that is is not a business networking club - there are plenty of those. It takes a lot of time and collective effort for a Lodge to take in a new member and therefore they would probably be wary of taking that time and effort and then have someone say a year later - oh, I'm not getting what I wanted out of this and leave. Especially as some lodges have a two or three year waiting list to join. Masonry is about what you put in, not about what you get out of it. A bit like learning golf and joining a club just to get in with a certain business crew would probably lead you to find golf boring / pointless.

The story of the CV and my DH was to illustrate that busines networking happens to a certain extent in any social club - and that IME lodge members help each other to the same extent WI members, or a good neighbour, would - they are happy to help but not happy to exert any undue influence or show favouratism. I thought it was a bit pushy of the chap but that was just my opinion. The point is - it happens in almost any social situation.

Many Lodge members are older and retired.

Meeting in the men's lodges - yes this is a great step forward - as I said earlier, things will change - I have alluded to the Church of England and their gradual acceptance that women have a place in the hierarchy of the church. It is slow but is is happening. Remember this is an institution where there is no retirement age (our secretary had her 90th birthday a couple of years ago) and therefore there are some older very strict traditionalists who still consider women can't be freemasons. The younger men are doing a good job of balancing acceptance without upsetting some of the older members who have put an immense amount of time and effort into keeping masonry alive. I don't necessarily agree with their beliefs - but I understand things change slowly from within.

The priviledges of freemasonry are (IME) that of the companionship of those in the same Lodge, and their support if something happens, the ability to attend meetings and practices and learn the rituals - and to work hard at making the rituals a lovely experience as possible for those joining. We are taught that the greater your talents the more responsibility you have to use those talents to help others - this could be helping make cakes for tea if you are good at baking, or mentoring new members if you are good at ritual.

Websites and charities - damned if we do, damned if we don't. There are complaints that masons are not open about what they do, or that the money goes only to internal charities. Well, they set up a website to be more open about what happens and are told they are boasting. What do you want them to do - keep it a secret or make the information readily available? Same with being in newspapers etc - you want more openness - masons are saying - look this is part of what we do - we raise money and we give it away. It also encourages local charities to approach the lodges and request funds - some of them didn't know that we give to non-masonic charities.

Masons tend to raise money internally - they might volunteer to shake cans on behalf of an non-masonic charity but I have never seen or been asked to go out on the streets and raise money from strangers for a masonic charity. You might be asked if you want to attend a Ladies Evening, or other fundraiser and there will be raffle tickets - but that is about the extent of it. At any fundraiser now you have to specify which charity the money is going to.

paedophilia - masons are subject to CRP checks when they are coming into contact with children just the same as any other volunteer. As we well know, these don't stop paedophiles. Maybe there have been masons who are paedophiles - but I don't think this is a defining charactaristic and certainly all the masons I know would be horrified to discover someone they know was acting against children - and would report it to the police immediately. As each Lodge tends to be self governing and it is a voluntary organisation, perhaps you could help specify exactly what sort of checks and investigation you would wish us to run?

As far as I know if you have a criminal conviction you are not accepted to join a lodge.

In Scientology AFAIK you have to pay to buy lots of books to learn from - I was given my ritual book by the Lodge when I joined. I have bought other books which look at the history etc but these have come from ordinary bookshops (and Amazon! Even on Kindle for free.).

Cost - A lot of regalia is passed on from one person to another - part of mine comes from a very close friends grandfather as her son does not want to join but she wanted her grandfather's regalia to continue to be used. You have to pay Lodge fees for each Lodge you join (these go towards secretaries expenses, upkeep of the building, flowers / cards for members who are ill, that sort of thing) and mine are well under £100 for the year. If you are having difficulty with the fees you can approach the Lodge and they will consider waiving the fees. Very often older members on limited incomes are told their fees will be waived for the remainder of their life.

Have I missed anything? probably.

Maybe we have to accept that people find value in different things - freemasonry has changed over the years and continues to change. But sometimes I really get the feeling that whatever we say and whatever we do (individually and collectvely) there will always be people who would far rather believe that we are a group of Satan worshipping, country and law manipulating, naive idiots who like dressing up but have an ability to control the world.

I accept that some of you may be playing devil's advocate - I would suggest that before you make up your mind you see if a local lodge has an open day, or visit one of the stalls they might have at a local county show / village fair. It might not be for you - but at least you would know more. Or look on the websites and call the headquarters and ask to have a chat to somone.

Qwertyytrewq · 09/10/2012 10:21

Are the Freemasons as secretive as a website that has political clout, canvasses its members for opinions and where posters do not use their real names?

On MN only a few people are known, the rest are anonymous and could be anyone.

LineRunner · 09/10/2012 10:22

But we don't decide each other's planning applications.

OneMoreChap · 09/10/2012 10:25

LineRunner
But we don't decide each other's planning applications.

How would we know that?
There might be a special forum that only some of you use...

adeucalione · 09/10/2012 10:28

LineRunner - you would say that wouldn't you, maybe you're just not high up enough in the pecking order?

claig · 09/10/2012 10:32

How did Kenneth Noye become a mason? Are masons chucked out if they get criminal records?

www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-5068061.html

LineRunner · 09/10/2012 10:36

More charming adverts for Freemasonry, I see.

OneMoreChap · 09/10/2012 10:37

claig
How did Kenneth Noye become a mason?

I don't know the man, nor his Lodge. The report says:
"He was proposed and seconded by two police officers ..."

Any prospective member is interviewed, proposed, and balloted for in an anonymous ballot. If they fail the ballot, that's it. They aren't in.

Are masons chucked out if they get criminal records?

In my experience, yes. Not often, but then I haven't met any criminal masons - nor many criminals, come to that. I have seen disciplinary cases come through where people have been expelled.

OneMoreChap · 09/10/2012 10:39

LineRunner
More charming adverts for Freemasonry, I see.

Poke people long enough with a stick, and expect a reaction.
How do I know there isn't a special forum...?

[I've seen reference to "The Other Place" in various Relationships thread... how do I know that isn't for nefarious purpose?]

SaurenLaurensonsMum · 09/10/2012 10:44

hmm - A lodge in our area not only accepted a convicted drug dealer, he became a master. I knew others in the lodge and warned them, eventually admitting that he was beating me to a pulp.
They helped me remove my furniture but that was it. Police photos of my injuries went missing.
He died from a drug overdose.

OneMoreChap · 09/10/2012 10:48

SaurenLaurensonsMum
hmm - A lodge in our area not only accepted a convicted drug dealer, he became a master.

Shocking. If I'd known a drug dealer was being proposed, he'd have been blackballed.

I knew others in the lodge and warned them, eventually admitting that he was beating me to a pulp.

Before or after?
DV would be a blackball too, in my view.

They helped me remove my furniture but that was it.

Not enough.

Police photos of my injuries went missing.
Connected, you think?
Was it like the apparent Noye case, was it a "police" lodge?

He died from a drug overdose.

Not sadly missed by the sound of it.

claig · 09/10/2012 10:49

'Are masons chucked out if they get criminal records?
In my experience, yes.'

Is there a rule book, are there rules that members have to abide by?

SaurenLaurensonsMum · 09/10/2012 10:55

Thanks. I don't know if it was a 'police' lodge but there were policemen who were members as well as a mixed array of professions.
I told members of a neighboring lodge during this persons term as master.

I still live in fear despite his death several years ago. Nobody believed me but they spoke openly about his being a bad one after his death. So they did know but did nothing about it.

OneMoreChap · 09/10/2012 10:57

claig
Is there a rule book, are there rules that members have to abide by?

Constitution, Rules, and bye-laws.
You're issued with them on initiation.

They are for members.

LineRunner · 09/10/2012 11:31

We could know each other in Real Life, OneMoreChap.

Shall we start over? I've quite warmed to you. Smile

OneMoreChap · 09/10/2012 11:33

LineRunner

Sssh, don't tell them. We'll discuss it in the usual place Wine

Grin

I may well be an ares, but I do try and be consistent Smile

LineRunner · 09/10/2012 11:41

I think you're incredibly resilient, OneMoreChap. Wine Probably a good bloke on a desert island, that kind of thing.

HellATwork · 09/10/2012 16:02

Thank you for your posts and patience WkdSM - read this morning and have been reading some more online (the cases the UGLE relied on to challenge Jack Straw).

I agree with your points re FM charity being a lose-lose. I think in the light of JS's exploits, sadly, all publicly charitable acts which are put to the media are going to be viewed quite cynically.

I guess the freemasons would react like the catholic church in the event they were ever presented with enough evidence that freemasonry was being used as a tool of pedophiles - and because they are a quasi-religion with no public duties they would get away with it as in this case:

What do you think would have happened back at the lodge to Raymond Ketland if he had ratted on his masonic co-abusers?
icnorthwales.icnetwork.co.uk/news/regionalnews/tm_headline=evil-sex-beast-may-never-be-let-out-on-the-streets-again%26method=full%26objectid=16915241%26page=4%26siteid=50142-name_page.html#story_continue

Former Birmingham police officer Raymond Ketland, 66, of Nant y Coed, Glan Conwy, became involved with the girl after noticing sexual activity on Llanddulas beach.

He admitted two charges of sexual activity with a minor, taking indecent photographs of a child and facilitating a child sex offence, and was jailed for two and a half years.

Ketland had become involved partly through a fellow Mason.

Andrew Thomas, prosecuting, said: "He recognised one of them as a fellow member of his Masonic Lodge, who walked up to him and asked 'Do you want to have a bit of fun?' He pointed out a girl who was with them."

Mr Thomas later confirmed Ket-land had refused to divulge the identity of his fellow Mason to investigating officers.

Catholic Bishop Gerard Crane, called as a character witness by Ketland's defence, said his friend was "totally distraught" at what had happened.

He said: "He is distraught about the shame and suffering he has brought upon his wife and daughter.

"He is utterly concerned about the welfare of the young lady and we have prayed together for her future well-being and for forgiveness."

Gary McIlroy, 50, of Weatherby Way, Little Sutton, Ellesmere Port, became involved with the group while travelling North Wales as a pub and club entertainer.

He was jailed for 21 months after admitting sexual activity with the girl when she was 14.

nogreythatmatters · 09/10/2012 17:26

Common Purpose - In challenging times, why should organisations paid for by Tax Payers like the police, Health Authorities, local authorities and the BBC pay millions to a charity to run training courses which are essentially networking opportunities for staff?

All its meetings are held under the Chatham House Rule = its secretive, nothing said is attributable and costs as much as £7,500 per course.

Free Masons may be wacko, but we're not paying massive sums of money for them to go on Scientology type training courses.

WkdSM · 09/10/2012 17:35

I can categorically state that if that ever happened with anyone I have ever come into contact with through Lodge they would not stand for it. They would tell him to point out his co-abuser to the police and then (I would hope and expect) expel him from the Lodge. They would do all that they could to help bring this person to justice - but how as a voluntary organisation do you force somebody to confess? The promises we make (as has been mentioned before) to help each other are over ridden by the promise to uphold the laws of the country.

I think one difference is that unlike the Catholic Church individual members are not reliant on Freemasonry for their employment, housing, income, retierment plan - their whole life. So if as a priest you report another priest, then maybe you jeapordise your career (and the takings from the collections) and put the Church in danger of being sued (as in Boston particularly). Not so with Freemasons. Why would you think that we would cover anything up anymore than the local Round Table or Lions Club would?

I am not sure that becoming a freemason would be the most obvious route for a paedophile to gain access to children. Children do not attend meetings, and the socials are usually adult targeted (dinner dances etc) or children attend with family members - such as at an annual barbecue. There is no youth division (as with rotary or Lions).

Most of the time the fundraising is done at meetings, and then a donation is made to an agreed charity.

My Dh does belong to one Lodge where twice a year they take disabled children fishing for the day - but their families are always invited and all Lodge members have to be police checked. But that is the only one that is 'hands on' as such - terrible phrase but I'm sure you know what I mean.

We have both interacted far more with children through other charity groups we belong to.

I can't see that JS had any direct contact with children through his masonic connections - (whatever they were) - it seems to be through work / his own charities. But I could be proved wrong.

I still think to ban us as a group would be as ridiculous as banning the scouts because some scout masters have colluded in abusing children.

WkdSM · 09/10/2012 17:39

Nogrey
Yes - we may be wacko (or as I would term it determined individuals with a strict sense of morals for the most part) - but I don't think we cost the taxpayer any money.

Charbon · 09/10/2012 18:51

I don't think the allegation is that paedophile freemasons have used the organisation's charitable works in order to access children, it's that criminal activities in general have been overlooked (and in many cases facilitated) by other freemasons in positions of power, either because those individuals are lower down the pecking order in the lodge hierarchy Kenneth Noye was the master of his lodge, because of the requirement to help one of the brotherhood, or because of fellow freemasons' own criminal activity.

I think it's stretching credibility to think that an organisation that people have to pay to join and is attractive to men in positions of power (as well as those who are unlikely to achieve power at work and seek an ego replacement through the lodge hierarchy) is not vulnerable to those who use it for their own advancement and in order to conceal their activities. Or that its only appeal is to the altruistic who want to conduct good works for the benefit of wider society.

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