to think that Freemasonry should not be allowed to exist?

[StickMeToTheMan]

... or that members should declare their membership - especially those in positions of power - police, SS, politicians etc?

I am just flabbergasted that this is allowed in this day and age. Take a look at the JS scandal and the potential involvement of the masons, and surely no-one can dispute that this old boy network is dangerously shady.

Can anyone explain to me what it is really for, and if membership to any secret society is justifiable in this day and age?

AIBU?

(Namechanged as have been discussing on FB)

I think it's a sad state of affairs Stickit that you have judged all freemasons and decided that they are "dangerously shady" just because they are a group that keeps the details of their members and their practices from people like you.
Just because you do not understand something does not mean it should be made illegal. Freemasons do an awful lot of charity work, yes they don't advertise this, why should they?
We have the privilege to be able to be members of any secret society without having to justify it to anyone, including, thankfully, you. It is the nature of living in a democracy.
If the charges against JS are true and there were other people involved, they will be prosecuted, regardless of what organisational memberships they might have. To think this is not the case is to do an injustice to all public officers who have sworn to protect you and I. They deserve your respect until it has been proven otherwise.

Is that why you think there's the segregation pixie? Really?

Even the official pages I've read today don't insult people's intelligence that much. They just say that it's like that because it always has been.

The scouting movement used to say that and realised it was an indefensible argument in a modern society, so they opened it up to girls.

A lot of men disapproved of women getting equal employment rights years ago, but the law intervened and said that they were no longer allowed to discriminate. A lot of working men's clubs wouldn't admit people of colour to the membership in the 60s and early 70s. The law intervened and said they were no longer allowed to restrict membership on the grounds of race and colour. So we have precedence that the rights of women and people of colour to fair and equal treatment were held to be more valid than men's wishes to deny them. So the answer to your question is the same - because it's not fair and 'I'm not comfortable around women' isn't a credible defence to maintain that position.

By creating your own single-sex institutions you're just adding to the problem, rather than challenging it and fighting the inherent sexism.

They are considered as two separate entities (again PGA and women's PGA) and there have been great strides to gain an acceptance and understanding of women within freemasonry. That our Lodges are now invited to meet at the men's lodges is a great step forward.

Really? Grown men in 2012 still need to 'accept and understand women'? If so, how does a ban on women further these 'strides'?

You think this is progress?

"" I want to join the lodge to meet men in the area of business I work in because it is male dominated and it would be a great route of introduction"

You would not even be admitted into the women's Order if that is the reason why you want in."

That's interesting Cote - why would wanting to join a lodge in order to network professionally exclude anyone joining? Is professional networking within the lodges not allowed? If it is forbidden how is that enforced? It would be interesting to know how many freemasons are expelled for professionally networking within lodges.

I think I get what you're saying OMC about being able to lie about believing in a supreme being in order to join and everyone turning a blind eye due to the use of the word "profess" which does not require actual belief - just the willingness to say you do (as you pointed out):

"The right not to have any belief at all - and not to be discriminated against because of that, is covered by law. Why is freemasonry exempt from that?

Because it's an organisation for people who believe in a Supreme Being?
As a technical point, I believe it's profess a belief in a Supreme Being, and we don't ask questions - which is why we have people in of all religions. (ssh and none)"

So a belief in the Flying Spaghetti Monster and its texts would be fine? It's not required for the supreme being to be a deity of any kind because freemasonry is not claiming any religious basis for the ability to discriminate against me?

As long as you got a text and a willingness to lie about your belief as being in a supreme being, atheists are welcome to join. Got it. And if there's no requirement for the supreme being to be a deity you don't even have to lie about being humanist or atheist in persuasion and you will be allowed to join.

I was also thinking on the walk home about this and was wondering if pre/post/no op trans males and females can join the freemasons?

Sorry OMC you did ask to ask questions and you are providing much food for thought now you are not quite so angry.

so what if its because thats the way its always been and i dont doubt that.

it still stands that my preferance is to not join many social things that are mixed i pointed that out as a personal preferance just as you pointed out that you are about clubs that arnt mixed. and by attempting to claim that my preferance insults other peoples inteligence is bigoted rude and idiotic.

some people are compleatly happy with single sex things those that arnt are perfectly free to not join them.

and im a woman not a man

amillionyears
OneMoreChap,you are the head of a lodge.

I was Master of a Lodge.

Who do you have to answer to?
I was elected by my brethren.
I ruled the Lodge. I had Wardens and Deacons.
I decided the ceremonies we did, and where we gave Charity.
I decided whom we would admit as visitors - although Provincial and Grand Officers would be given admittance.

After my term in office I voted for my successor. Who ruled etc. ...

badinage
I don't believe that it's tradition

What do you believe the; enlighten us?
If people believe these nonsensical explanations, more fool them.

Point a finger, 3 point back at you.

If the freemasonry movement wanted people to believe that these methods of proof regarding membership are personal preference or because of an attachment to tradition, they would state openly what those methods of proof are. Because no-one with a functioning brain would believe the explanations being given on this thread.

Alternatively, they might not give a toss what you think. I've answered you politely. I don't want you to think that's because you have an opinion I value.

HellATwork
I'm not angry. I'm bored.
OMC about being able to lie about believing in a supreme being

Again, strawman. You evidently have little comprehension of the written word, and sorry, I've been patient long enough. You no longer deserve the courtesy of an answer from me. I think you are a bigot, and potentially a fascist - who would rule others by authority. I will not engage further with you.

The Lord Of Rudeness spaketh and thus revealed himself.

WkdSM - shit - did your DH report that bloke for asking him about jobs suitable for his wife? Must have been awful and really embarrassing for the other bloke to not have realised what he was doing - and for your DH too actually , I suppose in the context of that I do kind of get what you and Cote are saying about that being absolutely frowned upon using a lodge for - was he new? What happened? Did your Dh have to have a word with someone higher up? I wouldn't have put myself in the position of passing on the CV to be honest because if professional networking is so discouraged as to not allow people to join because of it, then presumably it's also a reason why people are not only not let in, but also kicked out. Obviously your DH acted entirely honourably but if people are told not to use the lodge as a professional network and not allowed to join if they are going to do this how is it enforced?

"One chap did ask DH if he had any jobs going as his wife was starting back to work after having 2 kids and he knows that DH really supports flexible working. DH told him to ask her to send in a CV and he would pass it on to the relevant department - no more or less than you would do for anyone you knew who asked the same question."

Am just looking up my local lodge - it's quite a famous one - rumoured to have a number of influential people in it (or at least did and the sons seem to join the because their fathers joined a particular lodge so am assuming they do currently too but maybe not - live in Westminster so hardly surprising). I bet if you were allowed to professionally network within the freemasons anyone joining could get a fantastic job through them - if you're not a woman or an atheist obviously. Can't even find a woman's lodge at the moment but maybe I'll give the men's lodge a go first anyway.

Why is the women being invited to meet in the men's lodges a step forward?

Yes Linerunner. Give people enough rope and they will hang themselves.

Any freemason who wanted to give the general public a better impression of freemasonry, especially in the coming months when the finger is going to be be pointed most acutely at that organisation's activities, is going to be extremely frustrated by these poor efforts.

A bit of a PR disaster, as they say.

It's not a secret society. It's a society with secrets. Which you can google. so not so secret after all.

OH would like to point out that the master doesn't choose the charity or his successor. The former is a collective pool of charities and the latter is an open election. And he never had to lift his trouser leg much

You can google Darth Vader as well. Not sure what that proves, mind.

Ask your 'OH' (does that mean your partner?) what the Methods of Proof of being a Freemason are and why they are secret please CSI? You can't get those on a google search and the freemasons and their partners won't tell us on the thread.

Sorry WkdSM above qn was from reading your post above - am just catching up.

Another question: How do SO MANY people (well everyone on this thread) know about the freemason's charity work if they don't publicise it?

If we don't know who are freemasons because they don't want to identify themselves then how do we know it's not freemasons telling us what good works freemasons do? And at the same time telling us ooh those freemasons, they're ever so modest, they never mention their good works to anyone!

That's what keeps coming up - it is a catch 22.

i think omc was very kind in answering your questions despite your rudeness and the twisting of words that you are so fond of.

You were MASTER of a lodge.
Did you not have to answer to anyone above you?
Or are you saying you had complete control of your lodge,and didnt have to report to someone higher up.

It's just like scouts for grown ups. A bit wanky, but nothing sinister I don't think. Films like the da Vinci code have made it seem all dark and mysterious, but I honestly don't think it is that exciting. If they had any involvement with the js scandal, tbh I would think that would be a small minority, and paedophile rings sadly would probably find another way of operating.

getoffthetable:

"If the charges against JS are true and there were other people involved, they will be prosecuted, regardless of what organisational memberships they might have. To think this is not the case is to do an injustice to all public officers who have sworn to protect you and I. They deserve your respect until it has been proven otherwise."

Respect for what? Everyone deserves respect as an individual human being granted. Do they deserve respect as an organisation? Why would that be? Most organisations I interact with earn my respect. Only the government (with a vague nod towards social contractariansim Hobbes et al) deserves my respect and therefore by choosing to live in a democratic state I am obliged to respect the government as an organisiation - and consequently the laws of the land. Do they make rules or laws I have to obey? Did I vote them in? Does respect mean being forbidden to criticise an organisation? I would love to know what you meant that by phrase. It is rich in ambiguity that's for sure.

I take it from your lovely sunny optimism you didn't read any of the links I provided about the non-masonic police desperately trying to excise the grip of their masonic colleagues successful attempts to pervert the course of justice in various child abuse care home scandals and the case of Daniel Morgan.

Ah okay I see OMC spontaneously self-combusted - that was a bit weird?

So from "I'm the mason from the other thread. Ask away..." at 16:42 to less than 4 hours later at 20:39 - "You evidently have little comprehension of the written word, and sorry, I've been patient long enough. You no longer deserve the courtesy of an answer from me. I think you are a bigot, and potentially a fascist - who would rule others by authority. I will not engage further with you." I didn't swear at him even generically? Was I actually rude to him and I am completely oblivious? (well if I'll get an honest answer anywhere it will be here - awaits flaming...eugh I hate this am often on the back foot socially when I take people at their word so I know I fuck up like this a lot which is upsetting in itself and the only way I can not do that is if I am told what I am doing and I reconsider how I behave)

I don't think I was on the the other thread so have no idea what went on there (sorry anyone know what was the other thread OMC came from - now I need to go and check if I had already pissed him off on there and I wasn't aware before this thread?)

I appreciate he thought he was doing me a favour by revealing himself as a freemason and inviting questions (because it's so hard to know who is one I suppose he thought opportunities to ask them questions are so rare, I dunno,I just took him at his word that he wanted to be asked questions because either he wanted to help or well, he just enjoyed demonstrating the freemasons aren't stuck up or exclusive or trying to hide and they're open? What happened?) and engaging in conversation about it, but seriously? I suppose I'm kind of shocked - it's been a long time since I've fucked up like this socially - I guess thought I was old enough to have learnt how to judge situations like this . Apparently not.

Please someone tell me what the other thread was that he came from? Am going to look now.

HellATwork, honestly, seriously, just leave it.

OH is DH actually. Am just used to OH when typing.

He sent me the following link with his regards to all! He was quite willing to share

www.bilderberg.org/First_Degree.htm

Charity work can also be found online - main charity pot can be found as following:

www.grandcharity.org/

There are more central charities which can also be found online. As I said before, not secret, just googled. Just like Darth Vadar.

omc has been answering questions since sat when the thread started. he answered politly and repeatedly sometimes the same questions several times despite people twisting what he said to fill a biased agenda.

hellatwork are you sat infront of the computer wearing a collunder on your head and have you lined your walls in eggboxes? if not it may help keep out the mind warp waves.

Our local paper regularly carries photos of freemasons from various local lodges presenting cheques to the hospice and such like. They're not that secret.

Sockpuppetrypixie, That in itself is a rude post.