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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think it is terrible to do this to a child?

149 replies

Sallyingforth · 25/09/2012 23:04

I know this is a contentious subject, and the surrounding comments are best ignored. It's just the video content that appalls me.

OP posts:
CrackerJackShack · 26/09/2012 12:51

He isn't being aggressive. That's how men reading the Quran in Arabic sound.

And again, I don't think the translation or the context is correct. Jews and Christians are people of the book, which means they aren't Kaffir, but they are misguided and have faced Allah's wrath according to the Quran for not following Mohammed or for falling into sinful ways.

There are parts of the Bible that tell the same stories. Jesus kicking the money lenders out of the temple, Philistines worshiping the Golden Calf, etc etc. Those passages are referring to the jews and other Semitic peoples, you know.

As a former-Christian I know I was taught these stories at a young age.

seeker · 26/09/2012 12:54

And you are all carefully ignoring my catechism video.

Machadaynu · 26/09/2012 12:57

CrackerJackShack

The fact that the Bible has the same sort of stuff in it doesn't make this ok.

Goodness knows you don't want to be Ethiopian if you follow the Bible ...

CrackerJackShack · 26/09/2012 12:58

How doesn't it? He's teaching his daughter what's in the Quran, just like Christians teach what's in the Bible.

Should they not teach what their Holy Book states?

ClippedPhoenix · 26/09/2012 13:01

That's how men reading the Quran in Arabic sound

They sound unhinged to me.

CrikeyOHare · 26/09/2012 13:03

It's a little girl reciting tenets of her faith. Meh.

Not actually her faith, though, is it?

If she was being forced to recite large chunks of the Communist manifesto, on the basis that she was a Communist & believed in those principles, I wonder if everyone would be quite so "meh" about it.

Machadaynu · 26/09/2012 13:07

CrackerJackShack

If what your religion teaches would, in any other circumstance apart from it being a religion, be considered immoral or illegal, then no, I don't think you should teach it.

Imagine you knew nothing of the bible, but found a kids story book in which, oh I don't know, a wise owl loves all the other forest animals but makes them kill each other to appease him, helps them win wars with each other (and it's always the skylarks that lose) and then one day decides that in order to be able to love the other animals properly he has to have a baby owl he claims to be his - but was born to, er, I sparrow, murdered horribly by the other animals.

Would you buy it?

Abrahamic religions contain unpleasantness that we would all find unacceptable in any other context.

SkippyYourFriendEverTrue · 26/09/2012 13:11

I think this is the reference for the 'Jews' statement

(which I think is
"Who were struck by Allah's wrath?"
"The Jews"

rather than
"Who are struck by Allah's wrath?"
"The Jews"):

O Children of Israel, remember My favor that I have bestowed upon you and that I preferred you over the worlds
And fear a Day when no soul will suffice for another soul at all, nor will intercession be accepted from it, nor will compensation be taken from it, nor will they be aided.
And [recall] when We saved your forefathers from the people of Pharaoh, who afflicted you with the worst torment, slaughtering your [newborn] sons and keeping your females alive. And in that was a great trial from your Lord.
And [recall] when We parted the sea for you and saved you and drowned the people of Pharaoh while you were looking on.
And [recall] when We made an appointment with Moses for forty nights. Then you took [for worship] the calf after him, while you were wrongdoers.
And [recall] when We gave Moses the Scripture and criterion that perhaps you would be guided.
And [recall] when Moses said to his people, "O my people, indeed you have wronged yourselves by your taking of the calf [for worship]. So repent to your Creator and kill yourselves. That is best for [all of] you in the sight of your Creator." Then He accepted your repentance; indeed, He is the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful.
And [recall] when you said, "O Moses, we will never believe you until we see Allah outright"; so the thunderbolt took you while you were looking on.
Then We revived you after your death that perhaps you would be grateful.
And We shaded you with clouds and sent down to you manna and quails, [saying], "Eat from the good things with which We have provided you." And they wronged Us not - but they were [only] wronging themselves.
And [recall] when We said, "Enter this city and eat from it wherever you will in [ease and] abundance, and enter the gate bowing humbly and say, 'Relieve us of our burdens.' We will [then] forgive your sins for you, and We will increase the doers of good [in goodness and reward]."
But those who wronged changed [those words] to a statement other than that which had been said to them, so We sent down upon those who wronged a punishment from the sky because they were defiantly disobeying.
And [recall] when Moses prayed for water for his people, so We said, "Strike with your staff the stone." And there gushed forth from it twelve springs, and every people knew its watering place. "Eat and drink from the provision of Allah , and do not commit abuse on the earth, spreading corruption."
And [recall] when you said, "O Moses, we can never endure one [kind of] food. So call upon your Lord to bring forth for us from the earth its green herbs and its cucumbers and its garlic and its lentils and its onions." [Moses] said, "Would you exchange what is better for what is less? Go into [any] settlement and indeed, you will have what you have asked." And they were covered with humiliation and poverty and returned with anger from Allah [upon them]. That was because they [repeatedly] disbelieved in the signs of Allah and killed the prophets without right. That was because they disobeyed and were [habitually] transgressing.
Indeed, those who believed and those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans [before Prophet Muhammad] - those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.

'The Jews were struck by Allah's wrath' is a statement of history according to the Koran and is not 'hate jews'.

'Christians are misguided' is not an offensive statement.

SkippyYourFriendEverTrue · 26/09/2012 13:14

Sorry, it's not even

"Who are struck by Allah's wrath?"
"The Jews"

In the video

but

"Who are struck by Allah's wrath?"
"Jews"

Which sounds worse to English ears, but we as English speakers can hardly read too much into a 2-year-old Muslim saying 'Yahud' rather than 'al-Yahud'

GuybrushThreepwodWasHere · 26/09/2012 13:36

For an atheist it is immoral but for theists it's the most natural thing in the world to teach their child everything they think is right...

and there is nothing more terrifying then someone who thinks that they're right!

SkippyYourFriendEverTrue · 26/09/2012 13:39

Plenty of atheists approve of children being brought up religious. Just look at the effort some put into go to Catholic schools.

GuybrushThreepwodWasHere · 26/09/2012 13:44

Skippy haha... forgot about that!

seeker · 26/09/2012 13:57

"
If she was being forced to recite large chunks of the Communist manifesto, on the basis that she was a Communist & believed in those principles, I wonder if everyone would be quite so "meh" about it."

Well, people are completely ignoring my earlier post of a Christian child saying very similar things!

CakeBump · 26/09/2012 14:08

Who cares if she's reciting the Communist manifesto or Mary Had A Little Lamb??

You pass your beliefs onto your kids, or try to. Whether that's Islam, Communism, Atheism or the tooth fairy.

I'm still "meh" until someone gets hurt

CrikeyOHare · 26/09/2012 14:15

Skippy A child going to a faith school in this country is not necessarily being "brought up religious".

And most faith schools go out of their way to make it clear that they are not forcing religion down throats, rather teaching ABOUT religion. In most cases (not all) I think this is probably true. The labeling & brainwashing happens at home.

Seeker I have found that if a comment from an atheist on these types of threads gets ignored it's because no one can think of an objection or comeback. I've started to take it as a compliment.

CrikeyOHare · 26/09/2012 14:18

Cake You tell your child what you believe, you do not tell them what they believe. But I suppose some of us regard our children as individuals with their own minds, rather than little extensions of us.

seeker · 26/09/2012 14:33

But if you are, for example, a Roman Catholic, you are obliged to bring your child up in the faith. And they have to learn their catechism. Just like the little girl in the OP.

SkippyYourFriendEverTrue · 26/09/2012 14:33

' A child going to a faith school in this country is not necessarily being "brought up religious".'

I don't see your point.

As I stated, many atheists clamour to send children to schools which are indeed highly religious.

That is not to say that every faith school in the country is highly devout. I didn't say that.

A school that teaches 'about' religion could be run by Richard Dawkins. A faith school, to be worthy of the name, (and some certainly are), maintains that a specific religion is true.

CrikeyOHare · 26/09/2012 14:34

I take it this is perfectly fine too? Young children swaying, chanting and begging "the lord" to cleanse them of their sins?

Not something I can personally manage to say "meh" about.

seeker · 26/09/2012 14:36

"As I stated, many atheists clamour to send children to schools which are indeed highly religious."

Do they?

SkippyYourFriendEverTrue · 26/09/2012 14:39

There seem to be regular threads about it on here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/a1523753-Schools-WWYD

CrikeyOHare · 26/09/2012 14:41

I went to a CofE school and a Catholic one. My DS has only ever been to CofE schools, since there was no other choice.

Neither of us were "brought up" religious.

50% of the pupils at one of my DSs CofE schools were Muslim. They were most certainly not being "brought up" Christian.

GuybrushThreepwodWasHere · 26/09/2012 14:53

CakeBump It might be the case most of the time, but I'm certainly going to some considerable effort to educate my DC equally about all religions when they become old enough to understand what religion is.

loveandkids · 27/09/2012 17:58

I dont understand why are some MN are so concerne by this littel girl,if you dont like it then dont wach it or dont teach it to your kids . the true is that they may be jalous about how come a littel girl like her knows all this about islam the true religion .every one is born muslim (.there is no other religion but islam .any one one who comes on the judjement day with another religion is a looser)may allah guide you all to the right path ,and this is not a brain wash this is a gift from god and a miracle

ChazsGoldAttitude · 27/09/2012 18:08

loveandkids
I don't think anyone here is jealous of the little girl. Only muslims believe that everyone is born a muslim nor will everyone agree with your interpretation of what happens after death. A lot of people do not feel comfortable with parents teaching children to recite religious statements without any understanding what so ever. It is not a miracle most young children have excellent memories, after all they easily learn 1 or 2 languages, so if they hear something often enough they will repeat it.

For your information, my DH is North African Muslim as are our sons and both sons are bilingual in Arabic and English and attend Qu'ran classes at the local mosque. My 9 yr old can happily recite Sura not because it is a miracle but because he has practiced them many times, furthermore he is old enough to understand what he is saying in Arabic.