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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

to ask how you feel about Scottish Independence?

763 replies

PierreBourdieu · 23/09/2012 11:01

Particularly looking for opinions from South of the Border, but all opinions welcome. My FB is awash with Independence fever after the rally in Edinburgh yesterday. As a Scotwoman I am always interested to hear the views of the English and get that perspective. I'll not disclose whether I'm pro or anti as I suppose it's not relevant here, also not looking for a bunfight! Care to share?

OP posts:
ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 25/09/2012 18:26

Whether = whereever

demisemiquaver · 25/09/2012 22:41

The UK is rare/unique in the world, in that we ALL have 'dual nationality' in a way : british when we want ,and can ALSO feel the single country nationality at other times, or even simultaneously .A comparison might be,say,an italian/british person just calling themself one or the other :an obvious denial of culture, heritage and history....such a waste!

sarahtigh · 26/09/2012 09:59

when part of a country becomes independent that new country has to apply for UN membership the remaining part of the country does not it, as retains its status as existing country so Scotland would need to apply for UN membership and EU membership England /wales/ Ni would not

this happenned recently with southern sudan it applies to be recognised rest of Sudan already is, same with Ukraine montenegro macedonia, sometimes the original country objects like Israel USa not wanting palestine recognised but whenever palestine is recognised there will be no change of staus for Israel

so remainder of UK will continue in NATO EU UN Commonwealth etc, Scotland will need to join, not saying it would be difficult it would probably be easy no reason why it should be refused but just saying it is simply untrue that if scotland has to renogiate EU membership so would rest of UK, they would not their membership continues with the terms that exist now opt-outs etc

I do not think that Scotland will have problem joining EU though Spanish counterparts ma not like it in case it sets precedent, whether it has to join Euro at some point will be part of scotlands negotitations, that day after independence referendum nothing will change it will then be arranging with Westminister governemt for smooth transaction and a date will be set for independence it will not happen overnight if referendum in 2014 2016 wold seem reasonable for completion

Charlie1972 · 26/09/2012 13:04

sarahtigh

The uniqueness to Scotland re: the EU, is that its already in it. The nations you mention never were, and joined as newbies so to speak. Scotland already has MEP's representing it, and policies already are in place, so its not need to join. The same for Eng/Wales/NI.

I think its unique for now, until the Catalans or Flemish go independent as well...

Sallyingforth · 26/09/2012 13:07

so remainder of UK will continue in NATO EU UN Commonwealth etc, Scotland will need to join, not saying it would be difficult it would probably be easy no reason why it should be refused
No reason?
Salmond to NATO, "Get your submarines out of Holy Loch now! and err - can we join NATO please?"

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 26/09/2012 13:11

sarah the question of EU membership is a very interesting one, and the answer seems to depend on who you ask! :-)

n international law, Scottish membership of the EU would depend on the question of which state or states are successor to the present UK. There are three answers to that question: (1)that the "rump UK" of England, Wales and Northern Ireland is the successor state, but a newly independent Scotland is not; (2)that both states are; or (3) that neither is.

(1)The balance of views among international lawyers supports the view that the rump UK but not an independent Scotland would be a member, but that is by no means universally held and many disagree. On the international law argument, the position is far from clear.

(2) if Scotland were to cease to be part of the EU and had to apply for membership, that would involve stripping EU citizenship from people who are current EU nationals.
European court judgments make it clear how hard it is to remove that citizenship, so if a member state breaks up it is unclear whether that takes away EU citizenship. This has led to a legal argument running against the "international law" argument, that if an independent Scotland were outside the EU, this would unlawfully deprive Scottish EU citizens of their rights.

Scotland would not be an accession country and would therefore remain part of the European Union. There is now a new clause as a result of the Lisbon Treaty that requires negotiation for a Member State to cease to be in the EU, and we know from the Greenland precedent that negotiation is also required for part of a Member State to withdraw. So the argument from Westminster that Scotland would be excluded is inaccurate.

This view has been fully supported by a range of EU experts and academics.

Eamonn Gallagher, former director general of the European Commission and EC Ambassador to the UN in New York, has said: "Scotland and the rest of the UK would be equally entitled to continue their existing full membership of the EU." (Sunday Herald, 18 February, 2007).
Emile Noel, the first and longest serving secretary-general of the European Commission has said: "Scottish Independence would create two new member states out of one. They would have equal status with each other and the other states. The remainder of the United Kingdom would not be in a more powerful position than Scotland."
Lord Mackenzie-Stuart, a judge on the European Court of Justice between 1973 and 1988 and president from 1984 to 88, has said: "Independence would leave Scotland and something called 'the rest' in the same legal boat. If Scotland had to reapply, so would the rest. I am puzzled at the suggestion that there would be a difference in the status of Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom in terms of Community law if the Act of Union was dissolved." (Scotland on Sunday, 8 March, 1992).
Aidan O?Neill QC said on the Eutopia Law blog on citizenship (14 November, 2011): "Rather than analyse the matter from the classic viewpoint of public international law ... EU law requires one to look at the issue from the viewpoint of the individual EU citizen ... the question to ask is whether the CJEU would consider that the fact that Scotland became independent required that all (or any portion) of the previous UK citizenry thereby be deprived of their acquired rights as EU citizens?"

(3)The last answer is the least likely and least credible ? somewhere, there has to be at least one successor.

m.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/sep/13/independent-scotland-eu-member-snp?cat=commentisfree&type=article
www.yesscotland.net/independent_scotland_will_not_have_to_reapply_for_eu_membership

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 26/09/2012 13:14

Re Nato, summary of arguments here:

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/snp-divided-on-whether-to-leave-nato-1278847

Charlie1972 · 26/09/2012 14:35

NATO, as far as nearly all sides of the poiltical divide in Scotland, can take its nukes and shove them.

If Wales wants to harbour them, more fool them...

Charlie1972 · 26/09/2012 14:36

errr....Daily Record quotes.eeeeeek...not a great choice IMHO

Might as well use the National Enquirer or the Daily Mail.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 26/09/2012 15:06

I'm like to include various sources in my research Charlie :-) and in this particular case the article neatly sums up why Scotland may or may not wish to be a Nato member.

CatPower · 26/09/2012 16:27

Aye, but the Daily Record is about as reliable as a chocolate teapot. Sensationalist garbage, same as the DailyDiana Fail.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 26/09/2012 16:44

I agree, but in this particular the case the article seemed to be a reasonable summary?

awaynboilyurheid · 26/09/2012 20:32

itsallgoingtobefine I am scared of the future if Scotland becomes independent, another no vote here, why go backwards? we are stronger as part of the UK and already have our own parliment

FannyFifer · 26/09/2012 20:34

I'm scared of the future if we don't become independent.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 26/09/2012 20:39

A yes vote is not going backwards it is going forwards.

What is backwards is a strong resourceful nation submitting to control from another nation. Scotland would be so much stronger if we went it alone, without the millstone of rUK.

What is backwards is a nation selling off a health service, charging for education and initiating illegal wars over oil. I want no part of that.

merrymouse · 26/09/2012 20:43

Don't really care, but suspect referendum will vote against independence. Bit of a scary time for a small country to be out on their own without the backing of a strong Europe.

Charlie1972 · 27/09/2012 07:27

After Scottish Labour leader Johann Lamont effectively killed off the chance of any welfare state provision under her captaincy, I thought this was scaryily prophetic. Sent shivers down my spine thats for sure...

Her speech yesterday was nothing short of endorsing a Conservative manifesto for cuts and to smash the welfare state.

tommyballgovan.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/lamonts-scotland.html

FannyFifer · 27/09/2012 09:20

Couldn't quite believe what she came out with, she was bizzare on Scotland Tonight.

Her comments re Trident (of which Scotland's share in the expense of this obsolete and unnecessary piece of imperialist posturing is £170m) were extremely ill thought out.

Actually think she is an SNP plant as every time she opens her mouth she gives the SNP a boost in support.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 27/09/2012 09:36

I couldn't believe it either, whatever happened to the values of old labour...

CatPower · 27/09/2012 09:53

Scottish Labour have committed political suicide with Lamont's speech. What on earth possessed her/them to swing to the right, and why?!

FannyFifer · 27/09/2012 09:58

To be honest it would have been better if she had just stuck to the usual line of "Johann Lamont is unavailable for comment" .

First ministers will be interesting today.

The only hope for the Labour Party in Scotland is to set up an actual Scottish Labour Party, completely unconnected to rest of UK Labour and embrace Independence, it is the only sensible option.

geegee888 · 27/09/2012 10:18

I think its pretty normal to have different views and opinions in poltics really? I'm not aware of a rule that requires all parties to pretend to be in consensus, and obviously the reasoning behind what she was speaking about was budgetary, given that we are in a recession. Its pretty much what the rest of Europe is doing to balance the books, so why the astonishment?

Its this ingrained attitude towards any political opposition that I find most scary about an independent Scotland. Talk about budgetary cuts is akin to being an axe murderer. Theres no reasoning, just personal attacks, the aim of which is to get anyone who has views which are, after all, perfectly standard throughout the rest of the world, to shut up and feel too intimidated to speak. You are meant to pretend everything in Scotland is rosy, there is a limitless supply of money to turn it into Nirvana on Indepdence...

Although the prevailing feeling I get, living in Scotland, is that the pro Independence supporters are far more vocal than the "nos", particularly on the internet, and that independence is unlikely, although enhanced tax raising powers and partial fiscal autonomy are quite likely, resulting in higher taxes to live in Scotland.

For sure, an indpendent Scotland would be a bit of a scary place to live in. Its well documented how vicious "Cybernats" can be - for anyone who doesn't know what they are, they are particularly vitriolic members of the SNP who trawl internet forums to "plant" information and give the impression the SNP is more popular than it is, but who also pursue individuals offline and send threats in real life through the post, etc..:

www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/9129998/Welcome-to-planet-Cybernat-where-the-air-is-toxic.html

Theres something about all of this that puts me in mind of East Germany and the Stasi...

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 27/09/2012 10:23

Nowt wrong with higher taxes in my view. I and most people I know understand that higher taxes mean better state provided services /benefits/pensions.

Furthermore, there are many things that should and could be cut before welfare. Trident being an obvious one.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 27/09/2012 10:26

Maybe independence supporters are more vocal because they care more and there are more of them.

I haven't seen any pro union marches, or indeed anything positive in the press about the better together campaign.

If the people of Scotland genuinely want to remain part of the Union they need to stand up and start shouting about it.