to ask how you feel about Scottish Independence?

[PierreBourdieu]

Particularly looking for opinions from South of the Border, but all opinions welcome. My FB is awash with Independence fever after the rally in Edinburgh yesterday. As a Scotwoman I am always interested to hear the views of the English and get that perspective. I'll not disclose whether I'm pro or anti as I suppose it's not relevant here, also not looking for a bunfight! Care to share?

It's the last refuge of a scoundrel, as Dr Johnson said.

flatpackhamster I don't understand your point. I'm not denying that if Scotland joins the EU then it will have to adopt the euro at some point. When exactly that point is depends on a number of factors, some of which will depend on Scottish politicians.

I also don't understand why this would be a bad thing. Whatever tradeable currency Scotland adopts it will not be fully in Scotland's control, doesn't matter if that is the pound, the euro, the dollar, the yen...

So it is most likely that Scotland would retain the pound, and then when they are ready adopt the euro. Where's the issue?

Begonia, bear in mind that there are Scottish tax payers too at man in cafe who clearly thinks no one in Scotland pays any tax. All Scottish tax goes to Westminster who then decide how much money Scotland can have to pay for devolved areas.

The Barnett formula isn't actually based on need, but there are things that need to be taken into account such as the cost of delivering services to the remote areas in the North and West of Scotland - this would push the overall cost of Scotland's public service up. There are figures on Wikipedia for the Barnett formula, but I don't know how accurate they are.

England £7,121
Scotland £8,623
Wales £8,139
Northern Ireland £9,385

Barnett Formula: Allocation to NI has traditionally been high because of the Troubles and then the peace process. The amount has now been drastically reduced.

Surprised that Scotland get so big a share.

I'm a pro-unionist Englishman. I really hope that Scotland chooses to remain part of the UK.

Saying that, if Scotland goes down the route of further independence it would be better, for all parties, to get the split over and done with quickly. I also think that without England?s support and with the mid / long term dwindling of North Sea oil reserves, Scotland will find it difficult to maintain its current rate of high government spending.

Scottish independence would also (probably) result in the permanent 'locking out' of Labour in English, Welsh & N.I. political affairs as, without Scottish support, Labour would probably struggle to win an outright majority in parliament representing the fact that England is traditionally a more Tory country than Scotland and Wales.

I've often wondered what would happen if England were be the ones to secede from the union - leaving Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland as the UK and us English as an independent state. This scenario would probably help Scotland as they would retain the UK's agreements with the EU and Sterling, whilst the generally more eurosceptic English can revert to the sort of status that Switzerland has with a brand new currency.

begonia

Via the Barnett Formula

England £7,121
Scotland £8,623
Wales £8,139
Northern Ireland £9,385

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnett_formula#section_1

It should also be noted that the differences in the Barnett Formula are because it is allocated depending on need. For example Londoners are allocated more per head than the Scots.

I have a question.....

Someone way up there^^ said something about Scottish people having to establish their own embassies etc to support their nationals overseas. Would all of these things automatically belong to the new Union? As funding for these would have come from Scotland too (albeit a much smaller proportion) surely Scotland would have some claim on Union assets?

Also, doesn't it annoy the Welsh/N.Irish when people keep saying 'if Scotland want to use England's xxxxxxxx' Do the Welsh & N.Irish not exist anymore?!

I am Scottish, living overseas, and I would vote no.

Will Scotland have embassies?
Yes, says the SNP. It would add to the 25 or so overseas trade, tourism and government offices Scotland currently has.

A spokesman said: "At present, Scotland's taxpayers contribute more money to fund UK embassies than many smaller independent nations fund their embassies with.

"A Scottish embassy and consular network will focus more on jobs and trade and promoting Scotland internationally, with benefits for our economy."

The SNP's Scotland Forward document says "too much of UK overseas representation is based on status and power and that's not what Scotland needs".

Scotland already has its own offices in certain strategic overseas locations (Brussels, Washington DC and Beijing) to represent key interests.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-18364699

Plus as with all UK assets Scotland would be entitled to a proportional share.

Plus UK already shares embassies with Canada, another independent country, so there is no reason some agreement couldn't be reached with Scotland as well.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine

flatpackhamster I don't understand your point. I'm not denying that if Scotland joins the EU then it will have to adopt the euro at some point.

Actually, you did.

When exactly that point is depends on a number of factors, some of which will depend on Scottish politicians.

That's very different to your original statement.

I also don't understand why this would be a bad thing. Whatever tradeable currency Scotland adopts it will not be fully in Scotland's control, doesn't matter if that is the pound, the euro, the dollar, the yen...

You clearly haven't been watching the unfolding crisis in the EU.

So it is most likely that Scotland would retain the pound, and then when they are ready adopt the euro. Where's the issue?

The issue is the relentless obfuscation that you, and the other pro-indepdence people seem to go through. You claim you're going to be independent, but then you're going to be EU members, which makes you anything but. You claim you'll have the pound, then the euro, then something else, but then you say it doesn't really matter and what people are voting for is a sort of Avalon, an ephemeral isle of loveliness free from evil Sassenachs. Your message is basically no more complicated than the plot to Braveheart.

The reason you will lose the referendum is that you have given no clear, honest vision of a Scotland outside the Union.

It should also be noted that the differences in the Barnett Formula are because it is allocated depending on need. For example Londoners are allocated more per head than the Scots.

Londoners receive no money from the Barnett Formula. Barnett only applies to Scotland, Wales and NI.

However, I can help on the figures for regional wealth distribution per capita. Here you can see a fairly thorough breakdown of regional spending per capita.

Scotland receives 20% more per capita than the average for the UK. London receives nearly 30% more per capita.

However these figures don't show how much money is generated by the different regions. London and the SE between them generate the majority of the country's wealth.

Independence means that we will be recognised as a country/nation in our own right.

Of course independence does not mean we will exist in a bubble, free from all outside influence. That's a ridiculous suggestion, we are not some undiscovered tribe in the Amazon.

As for obfuscation, I expand on and refine my statements as I learn more and as people ask more questions. I do not claim to be some sort of independence guru. A lot of questions mean I need to go to and do further research. I want to know as much as I can before this referendum. At the moment I am pro because of the weight of the evidence, if further research dictates it then I will vote no...

I am Scottish, that's why I picked up on the man's conversation, especially as I had been following this thread the past few days. I very nearly turned and addressed him about his facts but thought it wasn't worth it, plus I don't know the full facts and figures. That's why I feel the truth about tax, subsidies etc. - should be more transparent son that people really do know how it stands. Fed up with the likes of the Dailymail constantly stirring things up, their drivel and anti scottish stance should be challenged. I've noticed a much more anti Scottish feeling down south in the past few years what with the dailymails rants and the resentment at having to put up with the previous unpopular Scottish prime minister.

begonia
www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2011/11/scotland-12288-union-public

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16477990

www.yesscotland.net/firm_foundations

Splitting hairs perhaps, but can I just say I find the type of language some pro-Independence supporters use really irritating? This is a prime example from Itsallgoingtobefine above:

Independence means that we will be recognised as a country/nation in our own right.

Whats with the "we"? Scotland is a place, therefore its correctly described as an "it". Is this something they teach proponents of indpendence? How to use doublespeak in order to make something seem more likely than it is?

Another thing that gets my goat. Sentences starting "There will be" "It will be" and so on. Nobody bloody knows what will happen, so why pretend that you do?

I guess assuming that everyone is stupid will yield some results on the basis that some people really are...as for the rest of us, you don't have my permission to include "me" in the "we"...

Sorry geegee, you are quite right in all your points. I get a bit carried away by my enthusiasm sometimes :)

It's not all some dastardly tactic though, I'm just saying what I think and feel, and repeating facts I have read.

And sometimes I get a bit carried away with what I am thinking...

So do we have a tally yet on how Scots on this thread feel about independence? My gut feeling is that more have said no then yes.

As a Scot living down south and no intention so far in moving back north, I'd say no as I would be sad to see the end of the union. Maybe it's a mistrust and fear of change or the unknown. I've not been persuaded it's in Scotland's interests so far. However I won't be voting anyway. think my husband would be a yes vote.

More have said no than yes definitely, however it is unclear how many of the posters are eligible to vote.

Maybe the "we" thing is unintentional just ingrained from singing Flower of Scotland?

"But we can still rise now
And be the nation again"

I always think that Scotland would struggle to unite as Glaswegians are chippy about Edinburghites, the islands are full of incoming English anyway, Aberdeen is doing fine thankyou and doesn't give a monkey's about the rest of the country and the SW where I live will continue to be totally ignored as it is now.
And we have this awful reigious division just to complicate things further.
Can't see it working imo.

BegoniaBampot

I've noticed a much more anti Scottish feeling down south in the past few years what with the dailymails rants and the resentment at having to put up with the previous unpopular Scottish prime minister.

So have I, and I live in the SE. The anti-Scottish feeling is strong here now. Nothing to do with the Daily Mail, though. It's got several facets. The first is, of course, Gordon Brown, who shovelled money in to Scotland to buy votes and treated the rest of us as a milchkau to fund his personal projects (Nuclear subs, carriers, RBS, HBOS).

There was a very clear attempt to create a 'difference' by fanning the flames of independence in Scotland, and I don't think that any of the Labour MPs who thought it was such a ripping wheeze to do it realised the consequences of what they were doing.
But there's more than that. You've got the disdain which we, in England, feel that we're held in by the Scots. There's no meeting of minds, it seems that the Scots simply hold the English in contempt.
But there's also the casual racism of the Scots towards the English. It's always been there in one form or another, but now it seems as though the SNP has institutionalised it.

The hate came south first. The English were first baffled, then upset, and finally angry about the way they were treated. And this is the consequence.

The Daily Mail is reflecting the view of England, not creating it. The English are angry at the contempt in which they're treated.

But you get that in England too - Cornwall wants independence, there is a Yorkshire/Lancs rivalry, north/south divide and probably many, many others. Not as much religious bigotry but there are more pronounced issues of race in the cities.

I think the Scottish people are more than capable of running their own country.

Cornwall most certainly does not want independence.

The enormous majority of people in Cornwall scorn the few nats who think that Cornwall could possibly survive on its own.

I think you may be confusing independence with measures of devolution.

Not read thread but I'm scottish and pro-independence.

It just seems so common sense. If we were independent there would be no question of having a referendum on creating a United Kingdom.

It's a side issue but Scotland would get more of a say in Europe if we were independent. we currently only have 6 MEPs- the same as Malta, and half of Ireland's 12.

Stupid Scot's we should be grateful for all that has been done for us. ;)

I don't know anyone that dislikes English people, many many SNP members are English and many other nationalities, there are even English SNP MSP's and MP I think.

There is always banter with folk from different areas, we get called dirty Fifers as used to be lots of coal mining here for example.

I dislike being ruled from Westminster, we have one Tory MP FFS and look at the government we have and didn't vote for.
These people have absolutely no idea about Scotland. Great place for storing nuclear weapons though, practically beside one of our largest cities.

Looking forward to England finding somewhere else to store it's Nukes as no nuclear in an Indy Scotland, trident has cost Scot £170m (UK £2b).

flatpackhamster the Scots don't hate the English, and there is no prevalent casual racism. Obviously there are the idiot minority whether you are.

Speaking for myself, I watch what is happening in England and I am very very grateful that to some extent Scots are shielded from it by devolution and I pity those in England who have to suffer it.

I feel resentful that the Scots are ruled over by a government that does not represent the majority of Scots.

I am scared of the future if Scotland Continues to be ruled from Westminster.

Scotland has massive, massive potential of only we would be allowed to stand on our own two feet and utilise it properly.