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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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to ask how you feel about Scottish Independence?

763 replies

PierreBourdieu · 23/09/2012 11:01

Particularly looking for opinions from South of the Border, but all opinions welcome. My FB is awash with Independence fever after the rally in Edinburgh yesterday. As a Scotwoman I am always interested to hear the views of the English and get that perspective. I'll not disclose whether I'm pro or anti as I suppose it's not relevant here, also not looking for a bunfight! Care to share?

OP posts:
fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 24/09/2012 10:12

There is a LOT of patronising "we pay for the Scots" attitude in England though, well if the threads on here are anything to go by.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 24/09/2012 10:12

freddos that may be so, but that is not what has been shown on this thread.

londonone · 24/09/2012 10:14

I guess if we think about the divorce analogy, most English prob think they are Ian relatively ok marriage and don't really give it much thought, but if the other partner just gets up and says "right I wan to leave, I will be better off on my own then in this marriage",then I think there is probably an element of well "sod you then" from the English

londonone · 24/09/2012 10:16

Fanjo There is a LOT of we are so oppressed from the Scottish side though!

fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 24/09/2012 10:17

Wanting to be independent does not equal generally being oppressed by everyone in England.

fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 24/09/2012 10:17

The government..yes..but they oppress everyone to some degree.

OutragedAtThePriceOfFreddos · 24/09/2012 10:17

There is Fanjo, which is why I think we would all appreciate it if someone came out with a final and definitive answer on whether Scotland is subsidised or not.

I have seen a lot of anti English sentiment from Scots recently, and I think on the whole they have far more desire to see the English fail than the other way round.

Jins · 24/09/2012 10:17

I'm English but my roots are in Scotland. I lean slightly towards independence.

If independence goes ahead it will be because the majority want it. Unfortunately whatever the result there will be large groups of people who are left deeply unhappy by the result. The same thing happened with the Europe referendum to be honest.

I'm interested to see the results. I feel more connection to Scotland than I do with the south of England. I'd definitely consider a move to Scotland once these difficult school years are over.

OutragedAtThePriceOfFreddos · 24/09/2012 10:18

This thread is representative of MNers, not of entire Nations.

Lovelygoldboots · 24/09/2012 10:19

Outraged, surely you can't mean that Scottish independence should be decided by the English. That is just turning democracy on its head. I understand many English people do not care and shouldn't have to but ill informed bigotry is going to be damaging for both countries whatever Scotland decides.

peanutMD · 24/09/2012 10:20

Freddo that view has been expressed several times on this thread, you just have to read through to see.

London perhaps I'm wrong but I thought only one person said that, I for one have never felt oppressed by anyone full stop.

roughtyping · 24/09/2012 10:21

I can't believe some of the comments on this thread.

I've not decided which way I'll vote yet, I know which way I'm leaning though.

I have some very well travelled friends who trained as teachers at the same time as me. Regardless of where they go (Japan, Czech Republic, New Zealand, USA etc), they have been told how positively Scotland (and particularly it's education system and teacher training) is regarded.

TuppenceBeresford · 24/09/2012 10:22

Hi there, another Scot, living in Scotland. I haven't had time to read the whole thread so apologies if anyone else has addressed this - but England doesn't "subsidise" free prescriptions in Scotland... It's up to the Scottish government how they spend their budget and in order to fund free-prescriptions we lose out elsewhere. I personally don't agree with it... I'm not at all rich, but I could always afford to pay for the odd prescription and I think it should only apply to those on low pay/income support or who have chronic ongoing conditions - not people like me in reasonably-paid work who only ever need the odd course of anti-biotics.

Re. Scottish independence - I am absolutely opposed. I believe that nationalism is based on an assumption, conscious or unconsious, of the intrinsic superiority of one nation over others. Social justice for everybody is my priority (sorry if that sounds a bit pious).

I also share the sentiments of the person upthread who said they were bored of the whole debate! I'm usually really interested in politics but the thought of two years of this makes me lose the will to live... by the time the referendum takes place I fear I may want to emigrate!

roughtyping · 24/09/2012 10:23

(That was in response to the view that 'people from other countries think that Scotland is part of England' btw)

OutragedAtThePriceOfFreddos · 24/09/2012 10:24

I don't think Scottish independence should be decided by the English at all, of course not. I think the English have a right to ensure they aren't shafted by the move if it happened, in terms of Scotland taking on its fair share if the debt and then not being able to rely on the Bank of England or British Embassies. I'm in the all or nothing camp. Good Luck to the scots if they want independence, but they do have to be entirely independant.

What sentiment are you talking about Peanut, just to clarify?

peanutMD · 24/09/2012 10:27

That many MNers on this thread just want Scotland to shut up, get in with it and watch as they struggle to cope.

It had been stated several times.

fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 24/09/2012 10:32

yes, and they will laugh if Scotland go under.

Lovely to read that, isn't it.

OutragedAtThePriceOfFreddos · 24/09/2012 10:32

I haven't taken the impression from this thread that people want to watch as Scotland struggle to cope at all. Get on with it and shut up maybe, but there's nothing that bad about that. There are plenty of Scottish people saying they are bored of the debate.

I get the impression that many english on this thread don't have strong feelings either way, as long as the impact on the rest of the UK isn't a financially negative one.

londonone · 24/09/2012 10:35

It's because at the moment I guess all we hear is from the yes camp! So it's like having a conversation with someone who is trying to storm off and wants everyone to try and get them to stay I.e " I'm going now, don't try and stop me" "you can't stop me leaving you know" "look at me I'm off to do something much better, this is rubbish". And I guess everyone else at the party is thinking "well off you go then, don't let the door hit you on the arse on the way out,"

Perhaps we need to hear more from the unionist camp rather than listen to tha woman with the 70s hair do from he Snp drone on and on!

Charlie1972 · 24/09/2012 10:35

A great debate so far, so much better and less of the bawling arguments and shouting of insults than some forums i've been on where this has been debated. However, there is a lot of rather out of date assumptions and Daily Mail viewpoints which I just can't let pass by without comment.

I'm a Campaign Organiser for a political organisation working with the 'Yes' campaign, so i'd like to think i'm suitably qualified on most of the topics enough to write a 'Independence 101' to help 'scotch' the myths, inaccuracies and the unfortunate scaremongering and downright lies flying about....

There are pages and pages, but i'll have a wee bash.

Fingers crossed, here I go...

  • Why is there a referendum anyhow?
    The Scottish National Party made it a promise, should they gain majority power in Scotland, to hold a referendum on Independence. At the last Scottish elections, this happened, and there is to be a referendum 'in the second half of the parliamentary term', which equates to 2014

  • Who gets to vote?
    As with all elections, those who are on the electoral roll in Scotland. All usual election options such as postal votes, votes for serving soldiers abroad, etc will be available.

  • Why would the Scots want to leave? Doesn't the UK 'subsidise' Scotland.
    Unfortunately not. The 'subsidy' myth is a much-abused term without basis. Government and Treasury data shows that since 1980, GDP per head has/was 14% higher than the rest of the UK. Scots also represent 8.4 per cent of the UK's total population, but they generate 9.4 per cent of its annual revenues in tax -- equivalent to £1,000 extra per person. The reverse then is true - Scotland subsidises England, NI and Wales, by a significant value.

  • But would Scotland have to join the Euro, as this is a mandatory requirement for new 'joiners'.
    No, and nor would England/Wales/NI either. As all of the UK are already part of the EU, Scotland would not be 'joining' as a new nation per se. This advice is been discussed at length this month, and the official EU publication to scotch this myth is due to be published this year.

  • But what about the money. Would Scotland be using the Poiund.
    Quite probably yes on current viewpoints. Many new nations use existing currency, such as Australia, who used the UK pound until they introduced the Aussie $. As Scotland would bring substantial 'capital' to the table, the Bank Of England (BOE) would be daft not to want Scotland's assets on their books and there is nothing to stop any nation using the pound as their currency. Its a tradable currency!

Technically, based on GDP, Scotland would be richer per head than England/Wales/NI, and politically, with the anti-Euro stance being taken by the Conservatives, having a 'Sterling Zone' to compete with the Euro Zone could help make for an interesting competing financial area to which the UK excels on both sides of the border.

  • But what about the bailed out banks in Scotland?>
    This is a massive subject, enough for a thread on its own. The cost to the UK of the RBS / HBOS bail out in 2008 was £88 billion. However the actual Scottish share on a per capita basis was £8.8 billion, and on the debt accrued by the Scottish registered banks which would have been an independent Scotland's liability is estimated at £2.4 billion. Roughly speaking 90% of its operations are in England and 10% are in Scotland, the result being, by that convention, therefore, that the rest of the UK would have to carry 90% of the liabilities of the RBS and Scotland 10%.

  • Would Scotland stay in or out of NATO, and what about Nukes and Trident?
    Big debate area likely to be a free vote by most people. The SNP line is muddled, but appears to be No to NATO, and an absolute No to keeping weapons of mass destruction in Scotland -waters or land. With illegal wars and dodgy invasions, the approach would seem to be akin to the European style defence force, rather than sending our boys and girls in an imperialistic way to fight and die for American-led wars. Draw your own conclusions here. England will beat the crippling billions and billions to rehome the nuclear fleet in English/Welsh/Irish ports. Sorry.

  • But I live in England. Why don't I get a say!
    Think of it as an amicable divorce. If one party wants to leave, you can't make them stay, and the debate will be who gets the assets/liabilities/dog, etc then begins. Don't forget, 8-10% of all English assets are Scottish too, they were paid for with Scottish taxes, so that'll be up for discussion too. Bear that in mind in 2014+

  • Scotland has the oil and gas fields....does England get any?
    A few, very, very few that fall in English waters. Sorry. There's in the region of 100 years of discovered fields yet to be tapped, let alone the undiscovered stuff. There's been massive new investment in new fields over the last 5 years, so the oil industry knows best. Plenty more money to put away for rainy day (..rather than on nukes, wars, millennium domes...)

Any others anyone would like a view on?

peanutMD · 24/09/2012 10:37

Freddo read the thread instead of using your opinion will you?!

It has been stated several times that this is what they will do its written on the thread in several posts, wish I could post bloody links from phone...

peanutMD · 24/09/2012 10:39

Should note that I get that people are bored of the argument, that isn't my issue its the amount of posts which refer to Scots as if they are vermin just to be banished from their patch.

londonone · 24/09/2012 10:40

Lol Charlie- as someone working forgone side I think you would be least likely to provide accurate or impartial information. Sorry

Charlie1972 · 24/09/2012 10:42

With the exception of the Trident issue, i've kept my party line out.

Don't assume I'm a SNP member.

fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 24/09/2012 10:42

it's a bit much to accuse Charlie of actually lying about figures.

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