To be angry that the Chief Constable chose the words..

[seeker]

"gentle" and "a chatterbox" respectively to describe the two women police officers who were murdered on duty yesterday.

Can you imagine those words ever being used to describe a man?

'I think it IS posturing when these feminist ideals are foisted into a situation where the language will make no difference to the plight of the women to which the language refers. I cannot accept that this statement will damage women's equality'

The language used in the public arena ( I have no issue with anything anybody wants to say in a private context) will make no practical difference to the women killed yesterday. They've gone beyond anything words can touch. It WILL make a difference to all the other women - in that job and many others - because our society is built up of these brief comments and phrases and every brick in the wall makes a difference. Feminism isn't being foisted in to this situation. It's in this situation because words matter.

I have to go to bed now. Night all.

Watching some of the paralympics coverage, I saw a clip about a 15 year old male swimmer, who'd won at least one gold medal. The commentary suggested perhaps it was now appropriate to describe him as a man; as how could a boy be an olympic gold medalist.

Contrast with, someone senior in what was effectively those officers' trade union (the police federation) describing his two junior colleagues, who'd just been murdered, in a way thankfully rarely seen in Great Britain as "young girls". He wasn't (so far as I can tell from the press coverage) anyone especially close to these officers and was speaking in an official capacity. He ought to have got it right. And of course it matters. It matters a lot, that someone killed in the course of doing a difficult, thankless job serving the public, doesn't even merit description as a grown up by her colleague speaking in an official capacity. What more did they have to do?

[and that's different from how some women have a colloquial use of "girls" for themselves/regional variations in usage.]

And also, reactions are complicated and sometimes it's easier to focus anger/other feelings on tangents where there's something that can be done to improve matters in the future than it is to engage with the incomprehensibility of the idea that someone would lure two unsuspecting British police officers to their deaths in such a manner.

I wonder if the first wave of feminists were given such a hard time. That would be the feminists who would be responsible for these two women being able to do their jobs as police officers. Funny how you all accept the benefits it brought but are aghast at an uncomfortable discussion over a very valid point. The statements and media reaction have all overplayed the fact that two women were victims. Where's the outrage for the soldiers returning from Afghanistan in caskets ? Where's the anger on this thread for each and every one of them ? But we're all up in arms that two poor defenceless lassies died. Chatty ones at that. And with a wedding in the planning....

And if you think that trivialises what happened then you'll understand that is exactly how I feel about how their superiors have dealt with the situation in their comments. Good on Seeker for asking the tough question. Shame on most of you for the manner in which you personally attacked her.

I'll take my cue from the two police officers who posted so eloquently and with emotion (Sharon and lest) and accept that they thought it was a personal and moving tribute. Some people seem to be having too much fun on this thread. One poster even began cracking several jokes with big grinning faces.

Will not be returning maybe everyone else should do the same and let it die a death.

I find it more offensive that Nicola Hughes was described as a 'rookie' by the daily mail. As for 'gentle' and 'chatterbox' maybe this is true, who knows? God rest them x

Great post Blistory.

The police officers who were murdered were dedicated professionals.

They deserve to be treated as such.

The bit that DOES really upset me is the fact that they were unarmed. Why does the law not allow them to carry guns? They are doing a job where a gun would help save their life in a situation like this.

YABU.. This is taking political correctness to it's limits IMHO does it really matter if the Chief Constable used the words, girls, chatterboxes and gentle, they were obviously meant in an endearing way, maybe it would have been acceptable to you if he had said "2 female humans, who verbalized excessively and were docile"?

To pick up on such trivial issue in this tragic situation is a sign of someone who doesn't really have a lot in life to think about....

Blistory, totally agree. And the truth is feminists are always given an uncomfortable time, unless they say things that most people already agree with. If mumsnet had existed at the time of the suffragettes, those arguing for votes for women, would have been ridiculed, attacked and bullied.

You nailed it, Blistory. I couldn't find the words, but you did.

I would like Seeker to answer SharonGless' perfectly reasonable question as to whether she is still angry with the Chief Constable now that it has been explained to her that much of what he said was direct quotes from friends and family (using terms that have also been used to describe men recently) and that in the same statement he honoured their professionalism as Police Officers?

Yes Blistory, well said

Greater Manchester Police Federation chairman Ian Hanson said the murders were "the slaughter of the innocents".

Those words were tabloid headlines yesterday. They are disrespectful to two professional women who were dedicated to their careers in the police.

The words chosen, and reported will make it less likely that female police officers will be treated with the same respect as males.

Why does the law not allow them to carry guns?

I think over 80% of coppers do not want to be routinely armed.

Interesting article here:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19641398

I can understand what seeker means, when I heard it myself I did think it was a strange choice of words.

I don't think they were used to patronise or belittle though. Just the opposite actually.

Pc Nicola Hughes lived very close to me and was at school with ds2.

I cannot stop thinking about her mother and father. God help them

Do you really think that Holeyghost?

I th

Thanks complex. The cost and training argument are a bit rubbish though.
Though obviously the equilibrium argument and the wishes of the majority of the police force themselves are powerful points, the "not having to make split second decisions" is really sad and a product of the culture that thinks its perfectly appropriate to have a police inquiry when a policeman shoots a bank robber when the robbery is in progress

I have answered it repeatedly, ithaka. And the words have not been used to describe men in comparable circumstances.

"I wonder if the first wave of feminists were given such a hard time. That would be the feminists who would be responsible for these two women being able to do their jobs as police officers. Funny how you all accept the benefits it brought but are aghast at an uncomfortable discussion over a very valid point. The statements and media reaction have all overplayed the fact that two women were victims. Where's the outrage for the soldiers returning from Afghanistan in caskets ? Where's the anger on this thread for each and every one of them ? But we're all up in arms that two poor defenceless lassies died. Chatty ones at that. And with a wedding in the planning....

And if you think that trivialises what happened then you'll understand that is exactly how I feel about how their superiors have dealt with the situation in their comments. Good on Seeker for asking the tough question. Shame on most of you for the manner in which you personally attacked her."

Superiors have dealt with the situation in their comments? They were quotes. Do you understand that? Quotes. From friends and colleagues.

And I can't believe that you can't see what's offensive about this thread.

Good post blistory

I do not see my upset about this thread as a rejection of feminism. Thank you very much.

I reject the idea that it is acceptable to criticise the words of the grieving a few scant hours after the event! At the top of every single page is seeker 's original post. How would those women's families and friends feel to see their descriptions criticised for sexism?

Analysing social attitudes through language is not usually something I object to!

HoleyGhost I think you are wrong. Everyone I have heard talking about these officers, talk about how brave these women were.

Im afraid your post Blistery just makes no sense. I could go line by line but haven't got the time, but here's a couple.

"The statements and media reaction have all overplayed the fact that two women were victims"
They are victims.

"Where's the anger on this thread for each and every one of them ?"
Em, this thread is about the murder of two policewomen, why would we start to discuss the soilders' killed in Afganistan?"

"But we're all up in arms that two poor defenceless lassies died. Chatty ones at that. And with a wedding in the planning..."
That is so very offensive it's disgusting.

"Shame on most of you for the manner in which you personally attacked her"
Incorrect, most posters have not personally attacked Seeker.

That analysis of my post rather misses the tone and point. I could take the time to refute each one of your comments but to be honest, I've said my piece and don't really want to labour the point.

Quick -

"But we're all up in arms that two poor defenceless lassies died. Chatty ones at that. And with a wedding in the planning..."
That is so very offensive it's disgusting."

I think that Blistery is trying to show how she feels about them being called a chatterbox and gentle by people who knew them.

Very very fucking badly.

Why is everyone sucking up to Blistory's post? It's all over the gaffe as far as I can see...

Why would we be talking about dead soldiers on a completely irrelevant thread? Why are you getting so upset that the media has had the temerity to share a few personal details (upcoming wedding for example) with the public?

And whoever compared this shower of shit with suffragettes... well, fuck my old boots.