Please or to access all these features

Add post

Watch this thread

Save thread

Start a new thread

Flip thread

Hide thread

My feed

Active Unanswered threads

Getting started FAQ's

Unanswered threads Acronyms Talk guidelines

Hide shortcut buttons

Talk

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Flip

1 2 3 4 5 6

Original poster

to think that arguing and swearing in front of your children harms them

131 replies

BurntToastSmell · 16/09/2012 22:24

So me and DH have a difference of opinion on this. He thinks that arguing in front of your children (to the point where the children - a toddler and a baby - are crying) is 'normal' and acceptable. He doesn't think it harms them in any way because "everyone does it".

I cannot accept this. Not when I see how distressed the children get. Not when I hear my 2 year old daughter repeat her father's words: "Piss off!"

It breaks my heart.

Am I being precious? Am I over-reacting? I feel sick to my stomach about the affect tonight's argument had on the children. It took me ages to comfort and calm down the baby. DH and I don't argue frequently, but when we do, there tends to be shouting and nasty words involved.

DH will only accept academic evidence in the form of journals (mature, I know). Does anyone know of any studies which have shown that such behaviour harms young children?

OP posts:

lottiegarbanzo · 17/09/2012 14:28

The demand for academic papers sounds like a way of saying 'you can't tell me what to do' and that he has no respect for your opinion. It's just a line, not a real request.

He sounds like someone who has real problems with being challenged on anything and with self-control. If he's grown up with a shouty, domineering parent (or other strict or angry set up), he may not have learnt how to have reasoned, calm discussions, or to resolve or diffuse arguments.

He may also feel his family and upbringing is being criticised, which will be really hard if he hasn't applied some thought and perspective to it himself.

financialwizard · 17/09/2012 14:51

OP I left my exh because of this (although it did also descend into violence with him). Took my lovely little boy with me. Thankfully I got out when my DS was 6 months but he still winces when his father raises his voice. (11 now).

AnyFucker · 17/09/2012 16:53

Why do people keep going on about how the opposite to the OP's problem is also damaging to children ?

Obviously the two extremes of screaming matches that frighten the children/nasty stonewalling are both detrimental to children's happy development but why is the OP repeatedly being urged to consider a problem that she doesn't actually have ?

nananaps · 17/09/2012 17:02

It is wrong and yanbu to tell him its wrong.

Me & my siblings grew up in an abusive, argumentative, sweary and at times physically abusive home.

From being tiny i have memories of being so unimportant in the room, that i could have drank bleach and they wouldnt have noticed during their sessions.

It was day in day out until they eventually divorced when i was about 20.

Me & DH have sworn that we will never be like this with our own dc and we never have. My siblings however think its what normal people do and they are in shouty relationships.
They think me & DH are "precious".

Wrong wrong wrong on so many levels.

brdgrl · 17/09/2012 17:38

anyfucker, i think that is because the thread has logically moved on to also discuss people's own experiences and views on arguing in front of children more generally.

No problem with a thread moving on to cover more than the original OP, is there? I don't think anyone is confusing the OP by doing so.

AnyFucker · 17/09/2012 17:41

that's true, brd, threads do move on

I hope Op still feels she can come back though

AnyFucker · 17/09/2012 17:42

oops, meant to add that if she is still reading, one would imagine she would prefer it if it remained at least vaguely on-topic

holly47 · 18/09/2012 05:49

This thread upset me so much that I woke up in the night thinking about the children involved and worrying about them. Your husband sounds dreadful OP. I second what others have said about how a 'good father' would not talk to his children's mother like that. He is not a good father, and definitely not a good husband.

fluffypillow · 18/09/2012 06:01

YANBU. This can't continue. Your poor kids :(

Morloth · 18/09/2012 06:12

Agree with AnyFucker, there is a happy medium to be had.

scarletforya · 18/09/2012 06:49

Prarieflower, just because a couple doesn't argue doesn't mean the alternative is seething silences and tension.

It's wrong to think that couples who don't argue are suppressing anything. I know it's only anecdotal but DP and I don't argue or even bicker. It doesn't mean we are being false in a Stepford wife kind of way. We are certainly not perfect but we have never, ever called each other names or told one another to 'piss off' or anything like that.

It annoys me the view that people who don't argue are being somehow phoney and unnatural and going around in a state of suppressed rage. The opposite to the arguing the OP describes is not suppressed rage or unnatural fake happiness. It's perfectly normal to just rub along happily together with just the odd mild disagreement.

Just wanted to make that point.

scarletforya · 18/09/2012 06:55

Doh, forgot to say, OP I also agree with those saying your husband knows the hatred filled arguments are damaging to the children. Asking you to produce peer reviewed papers while he just shouts 'piss off' is emotional abuse imho.

I wouldn't have him around my kids. Your description of your little boys fear is heartbreaking. [Sad]

GupX · 18/09/2012 07:03

DH and I have never argued in front of our 3 year old DTs (we very, very rarely argue anyway - maybe 2 or 3 times in 9 years).

But once, when the DTs were about 6 months old, we were both ranting to each other about some crap breastfeeding thing someone had said on the radio and both boys started to wail!

They definitely pick up things, even at a very young age.

Op, your DH sounds unpleasant. Hope you are OK.

SapphireandFevertree · 18/09/2012 07:03

My parents argued in front of us. It was terrifying. I remember it so vividly. And I have more memories of that than anything else in my childhood. That alone is damaging. The loss of happy family memories. and I spent much of my childhood scared for my mum.
My partner and I will not shout I front of our DS. I was at my parents house with him the other day and they started shouting. For the first time in my life I told them what effect it had on me and that either they stopped or I was leaving with the baby and they wouldn't see him again untill they were capable of moderating their behaviour. I will never leave him with them for any length of time. I will not have him witnessing that.

Gentleness · 18/09/2012 09:33

If we argue and get angry in front of my 2.95 yr old we get told off for talking in an unkind way! We haven't told him to react like this so it brings us up short. I think that they understand on a purely instinctive level when it becomes more than just disagreeing, but what scares me is that he even picks up on ultra-polite covering up real irritation. Your dh is underestimating the intelligence of your kids!

Mrsjay · 18/09/2012 09:36

as somebody who grew up with arguing and fighting swearing on daily basis I can tell you that it deeply affects children ,

However bickering shows children that not everything is happy happy so it is a balance, but shouting swearing and arguing is not on IMO , keep it till children are out of earshot even then keep the volume down ,

Mrsjay · 18/09/2012 09:38

DH will only accept academic evidence in the form of journals (mature, I know). Does anyone know of any studies which have shown that such behaviour harms young children?

your husband sounds a pretentious bully

quirrelquarrel · 18/09/2012 09:44

I wasn't harmed by it, my cousin was. They can practically pinpoint the time when the damage was done with him (his mum's PND, lots of shouting at her kids). We're both not v. well re: state of mind etc.
Both sets of parents very loving with each other, showing united front blah blah etc. In my case it was just that my parents used foreign (English) swear words which simply didn't mean that much to them, because they'd only acquired them as part of their vocabulary in their twenties. They also tended to be a bit more calm about things that happened in their personal lives and shouted over things like discussions, about philosophy and history, and got very het up and started pulling the books out my mum told me the other day they made a conscious decision to stop shouting at one point. Unfortunately that was when things started going wonky with me, so it didn't exactly work out. But the point is that I always felt it was justified between my parents. They never got shouty for no reason. They were accommodating of each other until they snapped. Although I'm not sure that snapping is a sign of emotional health really. Oh well, who knows. OP, it all depends. The child should be able to predict when the shouting will begin and the prediction should be reasonable...i.e. when the parent is at the end of their tether, and the tether should be long.

QuangleWangleQuee · 18/09/2012 10:10

Prarieflower So are you arguing that the OP's dh is right and that their children are not being harmed at all by what they are witnessing?

Oblomov · 18/09/2012 14:57

Dh and I argue, sometimes I shout a bit. Once I swore. This happens once or twice a year. I do not think it is o.k., but i am not that worried that it is damaging the children, becasue they don't cry or seem that bothered by it.
I am a bit surprised that so few of MN actually argue that much. It would appear from previous posts thta baring any arguing goes on at all, which surely can not be the norm.
Mind you, the Op's children seem to be very disturbed by it, which puts it into a different category.

DoMeDon · 18/09/2012 15:14

I am a bit surprised that people only argue once or twice a year!?

Adversecamber · 18/09/2012 16:47

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Prarieflower · 18/09/2012 17:15

Quangle we don't know the ins and outs or what the argument was about.Maybe the husband just had a different point of view and felt he was being bullied into not saying anything/arguing/discussing about it.We don't know how often it is either.It could be very rare.

I just don't think children witnessing the odd argument is damaging.If it is an awful lot of kids will be damaged as I don't think I know a single couple who hasn't/doesn't argue occasionally.

Prarieflower · 18/09/2012 17:25

Scarlet I didn't say the alternative was continual seething silences and tension. However kids aren't daft and they will always know there is an elephant in the room. What I'm saying is covering up disagreements in order to avoid any disagreement,heated discussion or row is not an awful lot better imvho. Kids will feel uncomfortable and just learn that expressing feelings isn't ok.

Surely couples should be free to get things out in the open,discuss/argue if needs be but make up sensibly and try to argue in a good way.

Oh and sorry but I don't think hearing the odd "piss off " is going to damage kids.It's not ideal but really I can think of a lot worse. Obviously dad needs to apologise to mum for being rude and not make a habit of it but seriously lets keep things in perspective here.

Fact-humans get angry and will express that anger at times.

Socknickingpixie · 18/09/2012 17:47

why does anybody need to scream shout and swear to get things into the open? a arguement to me means a differing opinun perhaps slightly raised voices perhaps a hostile tone. shouting screaming being sworn at or threatned to me is verbal abuse.

op out of intrest is there anything else he refuses to belive is harmfull to kids solely on the basis that peer reviewed studies cannot be located or just this?

Flip

1 2 3 4 5 6