to think that arguing and swearing in front of your children harms them

[BurntToastSmell]

So me and DH have a difference of opinion on this. He thinks that arguing in front of your children (to the point where the children - a toddler and a baby - are crying) is 'normal' and acceptable. He doesn't think it harms them in any way because "everyone does it".

I cannot accept this. Not when I see how distressed the children get. Not when I hear my 2 year old daughter repeat her father's words: "Piss off!"

It breaks my heart.

Am I being precious? Am I over-reacting? I feel sick to my stomach about the affect tonight's argument had on the children. It took me ages to comfort and calm down the baby. DH and I don't argue frequently, but when we do, there tends to be shouting and nasty words involved.

DH will only accept academic evidence in the form of journals (mature, I know). Does anyone know of any studies which have shown that such behaviour harms young children?

He's a twat, of course it affects them. It shakes their little worlds and makes them nervous and feel unsafe and unloved.
My parents finally separated when I was 10, and it was like a big weight lifted off the house, no fights.
I would still physically cower when I saw people have screaming yelling fights well into my adult life. It changes who they are.

www.drphil.com/articles/article/260

DoMeDon - no he doesn't handle anger well. He just says, "Piss off!" over and over again. No constructive arguing. He knows when he starts swearing, I will turn my concern to the kids.

Most people do at some point Laurie, but how many of them would have the brass neck to argue it's an alright thing to do?

Not many.

Can you ask him what he means by harm?

Because in my book emotional distress is harm. Your children were distressed by your argument. So it was harmful to them. It doesn't matter if they will have forgotten it tomorrow. The pain they felt at the time was real and horrible and compassionate parents observe and do what they can to make sure it doesn't happen again.

My daughter bangs her head climbing on furniture and gets distressed all the time. She isn't 'harmed' by this. With a quick cuddle and a bit of reassurance she can be back to her devilry in seconds but that doesn't mean I should leave her to climb the furniture unsupervised, or push her off things knowing she won't be badly hurt.

I would leave him your own sake, as well as the kids

He sounds fucking awful

No it is not what everybody does. Most people put their children's well-being ahead of their own pride.

Who wants to aspire to being average anyway? Surely a better idea to try to be a good parent.

Right, so his arguments consist of repeated swearing but he expects you to come up with peer-reviewed journal articles?

Perhaps suggest he adopts some of his own advice and offers well-structured and evidenced arguments, which he defends calmly and rationally? That would be a bit more academic, would it not?

AgentZigZag - is it brass neck or could he genuinely believes that it's normal? (Perhaps because it doesn't happen every day?) I'm having a hard time figuring it out.

Penelope - I believe that witnessing such arguing is chronically harmful. It took ages to calm my 8 month old down. It was an hour before he would have eye contact with me. And hearing my daughter swear - heartbreaking.

My dd is only 12 months. I admit I have been depressed lately but try not to let it show. But the other day I had a bit if a cry in front of her. Her little face, she looked so concerned. They pick up so much. I just had a bit of a blubber, nothing major, and it still affected her, and I ft awful. But to see one of her parents being aggressive an abusive? That is even worse IMO. No it is not right or normal.

And I can't give you journal articles but it is well known that trauma affects children in lots of ways physically and mentally, it can even stunt growth quite dramatically.

Tempernillo - I hope you're feeling better now. I completely understand the feeling of guilt. It haunts you doesn't it? You'll always remember that look on her little face.

lottiegarbanzo had it in one

To not feel shame or regret after you've calmed down is brass neck IMO, and I'm surprised you believe he really doesn't know it's wrong.

It might be 'normal' in his past family set up and he's maybe forgotten what it's like to live in that type of atmosphere, but to ignore the immediate effects he's having on his children is unusual.

Is it some kind of power game he's playing with you? Being so stubborn when he's blatantly wrong.

C'mon, he knows he's in the wrong, you know that.

I was doing some housework the other day and Jeremy Kyle just happened to come on the tv (of course I didn't watch it on purpose ). Dd started "shouting" at the screen copying the people on the show. Make sure I don't have that garbage on in front of her now! But the point is your dcs will grow up copying the behaviour they see at home. So it will become " normal" for them. But do you really want it to?

Blimey so most couples never argue-really?????

I might be wrong, but I can't remember anyone saying that prarie.

not to the extent that one party repeats piss off piss off without engaging in reasonable discourse, no

I disagree with DH, we might have a heated word but no swearing, no following from room to room to push push push til screaming is evoked, just full frank convo, then move on

The vast maj of couples in a healthy relationship will argue at some point and not damage their children-a whole lot of scaremongering going on here.

To be frank I don't think it's beneficial for kids to grow up never having witnessed an argument.

And I fail to see how any couple can survive a long term committed relationship without bickering now and again,the odd screaming row and the odd "piss off".

If it was all day every day then you'd have a point.

Bickering is totally different to shouting and swearing and the lack of control that goes with it prarie.

Yes couples argue, but the fact that your children are getting distressed to the point where it takes hours to calm them is a big red siren to me. Why isn't it to you?

If you were a PC or a SW looking from the outside in at an argument between you and your dh, what would you think? What would you do? I think you really need to take a step back and objectively think about this.

Would a normal every day sort of person that you would find at a bus stop, think that a wife spending hours on the Internet asking for peer studies to show her dh to say that children witnessing horrid arguments and becoming distressed to the point of tears is harmful normal? I think that person would scoff in your face and point out the NSPCC adverts for starters.

What you're doing isn't normal and you shouldn't have to convince your dh that his behaviour is horrendous. If he had an iota of sense he'd know that already.

This is the definitive, current UK government review of Safeguarding children and the messages from research, and it includes a long bibliography. Obviously, 'arguing' is a word that could cover such a wide range of behaviour, and much/most of it would not be a safeguarding concern... But (a) neglecting children's emotional needs, and (b) witnessing domestic abuse - including verbal abuse - are safeguarding concerns because they are known to be harmful... 'Excessive anger' can also be considered emotional abuse.

I don't think prarie has read the thread properly, bless