to think that arguing and swearing in front of your children harms them

[BurntToastSmell]

So me and DH have a difference of opinion on this. He thinks that arguing in front of your children (to the point where the children - a toddler and a baby - are crying) is 'normal' and acceptable. He doesn't think it harms them in any way because "everyone does it".

I cannot accept this. Not when I see how distressed the children get. Not when I hear my 2 year old daughter repeat her father's words: "Piss off!"

It breaks my heart.

Am I being precious? Am I over-reacting? I feel sick to my stomach about the affect tonight's argument had on the children. It took me ages to comfort and calm down the baby. DH and I don't argue frequently, but when we do, there tends to be shouting and nasty words involved.

DH will only accept academic evidence in the form of journals (mature, I know). Does anyone know of any studies which have shown that such behaviour harms young children?

It crossed my mind that it's the OPs DH AF or more probable, she's trying to justify how she shouts and swears in front of her DC.

children should see their parents disagreeing, possibly quite stridently, possibly to the point of one or other parent being visibly upset - BUT THEN also see their parents reconcile and make up with each other and demonstrate that it is possible to be cross with someone and disagree with them and still love them and want to be with them.

Yes, I was going to say exactly this...as a child I did see my parents argue, but never heard them say 'sorry' or see them reconcile - it was more like it was just all forgotten ...that was the real problem, IMO.

DH and I have argued in front of the kids. I am not proud of that, obviously, and I have been successfully working on doing it less, even when that means just refusing to engage - but when it does happen, I do try to discuss it with them afterwards, and also (especially with our little one) let her see us kiss and make up afterwards.

BUT. I think the level of argument and hostility going on in the OP's situation is something beyond the sort of 'healthy' or 'inevitable' disagreement you and I are thinking of...

I had a CPN when DD was born/a baby, because of a history of depression and some stresses - she said to me, "it is ok for your baby to see you sad. try not to let her see you angry." I remind myself of that when I feel my temper rising...

DH and I argue, I swear occasionally. He generally doesn't. Neither of us did when DDs were small.

But we do yell, slam doors and generally behave very badly.
Neither of us is likely to back down.

My Mum used to and it drove me nuts, never worried me hearing them fight, which they did very rarely. I always reckoned mum ought to have told Dad he was being a pollock far more often.

DD1 is very level header about her parents she knows we shout and fight and storm off. She also knows that we've been together 24 years and always end up cuddled up in bed.

DD2 hates us fighting and gets massively upset.

They are 11 and 14, but have always been the same.

DH has the sense to see DD2 is properly upset and does cool it a little, but neither of us will ever be perfect.

I can't be my mum and turn the other cheek. My Dad loves my mum to bits and they've been married almost 50years.
So sadly DD2 will have to put up with us.

The OPs DH does seem to be being a bit of an arse if he thinks arguing and swearing in front of DCs that young and obviously upset is OK.

I could trundle up with loads or he could get on google scholar, but Im not going to insult your own intelegance Op.

I would show him the only evidance that You believe this to be true and speack loder than words and get rid of the useless fuckwit

There is arguing and then there is arguing.

DH and I disagree sometimes, but we never ever have those screaming yelling swearing fights that I have seen other people have, not ever.

OP, he is hurting your children, he is writing on them who they are.

If you stay and let him continue this abuse, you will be as responsible for the damage as he is.

He is clearly very stupid, if he needs to see this obvious fact written down.

I grew up in the environment that your DH thinks is ok and to this day, I still think it has damaged me.
I have had to work really hard at making major changes in myself and how I deal with confrontation so as to try my hardest not to be like my mum and dad.

My pacifist husband will even 'ruck' to a greater extent than me given the opportunity.

My three brothers and I have never forgotten and whilst we were never on the receiving end of it, it has had an impact.

Your husband should educate himself in this matter, he really should.

"OP, he is hurting your children, he is writing on them who they are".

very wise very simply this statement says it all.

Your poor DD2 startail.

Imagine not 'backing down' despite knowing she hates it!

Good god!

my dd is 6 and my exp once at the time she was 2 shouted in my face and left my house in a rage. she has remembered this and still talks about it now. I often say Oh i dont remember that, in an attempt to minimise it but she knows and rememberes and it has affected what she thinks and feels about her dad.

The point about asking him what he means by harm is that he wants 'evidence of harm' well he has it in spades. He saw your children crying. That is harm.

You don't need to prove the point about long-term harm. It is irrelevant. The shouting and swearing hurt your children here and and now. So it needs to stop. People who can see their children crying and say 'well that proves nothing I need a peer-reviewed journal article to know that how I just behaved is really properly fucking them up' are really and properly fucked-up themselves.

I don't mean this as a criticism ETroll, but I know it can be very hurtful when parents try to minimise ((I know you haven't done this) and often deny) what a child has felt to be a distressing event.

She could be bringing it up because she wants to talk about it and get what happened straight in her head?

YANBU, it does damage them. They grow up be the kind of "adults" who believe that arguing and swearing in front of children is normal and doesn't damage them.

bollocks I just typed a massive post and lost it.

i do agree with you agent, but although it is that one event that sticks in her mind and she uses to verbalise, it is the other underlaying tension and difficult relationship that has affected her. I do not dismiss it happened I just say i dont remember in an attempt to show her some resiliance but do allow her to tell me about it, also in an attempt that the one incident that sticks out is not what she uses alone to base her relationship. I attempt to help her move on with this too. He never behaves like that infront of her now and it has taken alot from me to attempt to get him to realise this can have effects and so I think it is important they also work on that and I can show an element of forgiving someone and being able to move along as one incident does not always have to define us. if that makes sence. she is free and able to talk about it and I always say i know daddy must be very sorry now for that.

It's never easy to know what to do for the best, and I can see how you wouldn't want to reinforce her memory of it.

Weaving in the forgiveness bit and 'daddy must be very sorry now for that' is lovely

that is true and it is also evidance in its self that it does harm, it has harmed thier relationship.

I am always amazed on these threads when the OP uses the term 'good father' to describe a man who treats his children's mother like crap.

How can they claim he is a 'good father'? Kids by and large adore their mums, by being horrible to her he is being horrible to them and can therefore NOT be a 'good father'. I am 35 and the thought of someone being mean to my mum still distresses me.

My DS's would be distraught if I was being yelled at or hurt, absolutely terrified, throw into that that it was their Dad doing it and it would just be so frightening for them.

OP I think it's a bit lame to say you can't take the dc out of the situation because you live in a small flat.

I know it's hard when someone's shouting or trying to goad you into having a row...but it's your job to protect them.

You don't have to 'send them to their rooms'...you can go with them!

You don't have to engage with the row. You are an adult and you should have some control.

I completely agree with others that it's healthy for children to see arguments - if there is resolution, that's the key bit - but not swearing, shouting to the point of young children breaking down into tears because they are so afraid.

Only read op as should be getting kids up for school. Obv arguing to the point of upsetting your children isn't great and swearing In front of/at them is not nice at all.

But...when I was growing up my mum and dad never argued in front of us. As a result I have an awful fear of arguments because I never saw positive resolutions to them. I think observing arguments (rational and not shouty/sweary) can be more beneficial than trying to hide them away from them. But in the situation you describe I'd have to agree YANBU. And your DH def is!

Off to get kids ready will pop back and read the thread in a bit!

People argue yes, but making no attempt to remove adult arguments from the earshot of children is very , very wrong.

To be in denial about the harm it is doing seems pretty idiotic as presumably you can't fix it if he doesn't think it's broken. On the other hand children see that their parents are human with human flaws when arguments/disagreements occur. I grew up in a household where seething resentment and sulking where the typical responses to upset between my parents even when my Dad's five year affair was revealed my mum did not raise her voice once, shout or swear at him but I knew that she absolutely hated him and I actually wanted the tension to be broken by an argument. As a result I'm much more vocal about things that I don't like in my relationship with DP. It is not a good thing but I'm not perfect and cannot suppress my feelings all the time.

Can he not see his children? See the looks on their faces? See the after effects?

He wants studies, but all you have to do is point to your children and say "Look what you are doing, right here, right now. Look at those faces."

If I said what I actually think of what you describe of him, I'd just get deleted. But I'm not impressed that a parent could behave like that and not give a crap and not be able to see for themselves what it's doing to their children.

He can't see it on their faces but he'd believe it on a bit of paper

DP and I argue sometimes, but not screaming rows and definitely not shouting or swearing at each other in front of DS or arguing in a way that would upset him.

OP, I don't understand how you let this situation with your baby hysterically crying happen? Was your DH preventing you from leaving the room or removing the children? If you chose to continue the argument in front of your children then I think you need to take some blame here too.

I agree with LaQueen my parents always agreed with each other ridiculously so,when the other was clearly wrong.I used to loath this and sometimes it made any respect I had for either disappear.

I also hated those tight silences when they were not speaking to avoid an argument.Sometimes I'd have given anything for a big blow up to get it out there,actually found cold silences or forced politeness far more intimidating.Hate,hate,hated it.

Which is why dp and I do have blow ups now and again(not regularly),we don't swear.I'm more a let it all out person.We apologise after and sit and chat/cuddle any witnesses.It certainly isn't all the time,a few times a year if that year is stressful.Tis not ideal and I'd rather we had a reasonable discussion but life is stressful,we're all human and kids need to know that showing emotion,letting emotion out is ok.

Seriously the vast maj of couples do not go about in wedded bliss never having a blow up,it's life.Dp and I have been together 22 years and I'm afraid being able to argue is part of a long term relationship.

I also have to say it takes 2 to argue so sorry op I don't think you're blame free.We don't know what said argument was about,maybe op was to blame.A man can't argue to himself,said op is an adult so holds half responsibility.

If he's going to have a row, walk away. You can say that you are not going to do this now. Why do your arguments get so nasty?