to think that arguing and swearing in front of your children harms them

[BurntToastSmell]

So me and DH have a difference of opinion on this. He thinks that arguing in front of your children (to the point where the children - a toddler and a baby - are crying) is 'normal' and acceptable. He doesn't think it harms them in any way because "everyone does it".

I cannot accept this. Not when I see how distressed the children get. Not when I hear my 2 year old daughter repeat her father's words: "Piss off!"

It breaks my heart.

Am I being precious? Am I over-reacting? I feel sick to my stomach about the affect tonight's argument had on the children. It took me ages to comfort and calm down the baby. DH and I don't argue frequently, but when we do, there tends to be shouting and nasty words involved.

DH will only accept academic evidence in the form of journals (mature, I know). Does anyone know of any studies which have shown that such behaviour harms young children?

tell us tho, is it really just him shouting at you , or is the two of you?

"How do you react when he goes off on one?"

Initially I argue back, because I'm not a submissive, and I don't like people talking to me like crap. But when it starts to get heated to the point where I can see the children looking concerned, I lower my voice and try to calm it down, but he just carries on.

Raisin - that's good but I know it will be too 'blury' for him. It doesn't specifically say that shouting and swearing in front of children are harm

What is he, a fucking robot?

To be honest, you could dig out 'proof' written in 47 different languages by all the experts in the world, but anyone who actually needs written proof after witnessing his own kids breaking their hearts crying, would probably pick the proof apart and disbelieve it for his own selfish gain.

Sorry OP I don't normally say this about anyone's DP but he sounds like an evil fucking knob.

BurntToast, my DH ignored it, he said he didn't believe it - he likes to say things like oh no its not peer reviewed, or that he doesn't trust these groups that come up with this research, what are their qualifications etc and so on. So even if you get the research he's after, I bet he will find a reason not to believe it. I could have written all your posts!

you know that the situation is intolerable for you and the children, that they are at risk of harm, he doesn't have to accept that, of course he doesn't but you need to consider what's best for the children, and if that means him leaving because of his behaviour then so be it

from what you have told us you are their best advocate; it's your job to protect them

I rarely say ltb but in your case: ltb

he sounds like a nob

AnyFucker - he is a good father most of the time. But occasionally, there'll be a horrid night like tonight.

AgentZigzag - He won't believe my word when I say that it is harmful. What else can I do? It needs to stop.

That's what I wondered Nelly, because there's no way on earth I'd let anyone shout and swear in front of my 2 YO, or do it myself.

I'd remove her and refuse to engage with the twat.

I'm not what you'd call submissive or let people talk to me like crap, and you saying that is letting point scoring override what's best for your children.

yep, parenting is all about the "peer reviewed paper" whilst ignoring what is happening under your nose, isn't it ?

Exactly what worra said

BurningBridges - did you used to argue frequently or infrequently? what was the outcome of your situation?

I am sorry, OP, but he doesn't sound like a good father

Is it his upbringing or experience of relationships that makes him so sure this is normal?

I don't think he sounds evil. I think he sounds like he is utterly convinced it is OK to have arguments. Many people think it is OK to argue. He just has the wrong idea about what a mature, adult argument should be like.

hey, there is a more effective way at getting it to stop that doesn't involve pissing in the wind and looking for "peer-reviewed papers" to tell you the bleeding-obvious....

Agent - that's an interesting view. We live in a small flat so it's hard to remove the kids when he kicks off. There's no where to remove them to, short of locking them in their little bedroom, which would seem like a punishment to them.

To protect your kids you may need to be the one who stops the arguments, particularly if he's too much of a selfish git to care about his kid's wellbeing. It takes two to argue so by telling him that you're not going to talk about it in front of the kids you force him to either stop or he ends up arguing on his own. This doesn't make you submissive as you're taking control of the situation.

Divorce harms children, arguing harms children. If the only issue in OP's relationship is a once a month bluey surely it is better to try and tackle it than walk.

You remove the DC and yourself to ANYWHERE, until he gets the message you will not engage. I fact you could just remove yourself. If he is the good father and will not shout at or punish them, you could go for a walk.

arguments including belittling, swearing, insulting and excessive shouting certainly are harmful and distressing to the children.

however, hiding disagreements from the children is also harmful.

children should see their parents disagreeing, possibly quite stridently, possibly to the point of one or other parent being visibly upset - BUT THEN also see their parents reconcile and make up with each other and demonstrate that it is possible to be cross with someone and disagree with them and still love them and want to be with them.

adults who grew up in a household where arguments were always avoided or hidden are less emotionally healthy, in my experience, than those who grew up in households where lively disagreements were a daily occurrence.

DoMeDon - yes I guess it's his upbringing and the upbringing of his childhood friends (army families).

nocake - thank you for the advice. That makes a lot of sense. Why didn't I see it? I feel positive about what I need to do now; just wish I was that sensible to begin with.

The reason my ex is my ex, is because he took me not arguing in front of the children to mean I was 'backing down' and he was right.

He certainly saw my refusal to argue as submissive behaviour, rather than me protecting our children.

In fact he used to follow me from room to room goading me to see how far he could push me until I started shouting back.

I never did...I just removed the problem from my life and the kid's lives by divorcing him.

I'm now married to a man who like me, has learnt to argue in whispers and knows when to stop and walk away.

We bicker sometimes in front of the kids, but we never argue in front of them and we certainly never swear or insult one another.

Is he mixing up it being OK for children to see disputes and how adults go about resolving them, with it not being OK for children to be frightened by the emotion and verbal aggression involved in parents letting rip shouting and swearing at each other?

You need to start to map the onset of this kicking off, recognise what the warning signs are that it's coming, and then disengage completely.

Refuse to rise to the bait.

I know that sounds like it's you that's having to take responsibility for his behaviour, but if you're going to stay with him, you have to have control over whether your children see and hear this or not.

Let him argue and shout on his own, don't give him the reason to ratchet it up.

Lots of people have grown up thinking that kind of arguing is OK. They feel they are OK people and 'it didn't do me any harm'. By forcing him to face up to the FACT he is wrong, you are forcing him to question his own parents parenting, his friends families ideas of right/wrong. It's a lot of blue-printing to just dismiss. It will take some convincing but can be done.

You only have to mention food/film ratings/housework to see how people's own childhoods so distort their views on what is appropriate.

Does he handle anger well?

Yes, it harms, yes, most people do it to some extent.