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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Original poster

to think that "sexual harassment" is a bit strong to describe this event?

614 replies

BartiiMus · 14/09/2012 10:22

At a training session with work. 3 days, 2 nights on-site.

Around midnight (not long after the people concerned have left the bar), man A rings woman B and asks for a code to connect to the internet (we use password tokens and he'd forgotten his).

Woman says fine, come to my room. Man goes to room, then confesses he didn't come for that at all and tries to kiss her. She refuses. Man is confused saying he thought they had a "connection" earlier in the evening but she denies it. He leaves the room.

A few days later woman B tells my colleague about it. She was half-laughing about it and said she wasn't going to report it.

Last night at a party my colleague told us that there'd been "sexual harassment" during the training this summer but refused to say who had been involved. After a bit of coaxing and lots of clues from him we worked out who the man had been, and our colleague confirmed it.

I know him, I've worked with him before and he's a nice bloke. I'm not saying he didn't do this but he tried it on, was refused and left. Is that really "sexual harassment"?

To be honest, I'm a bit pissed off with the gossip colleague who told us all because it's a bit of a non-event (man tries to pull woman, woman refuses, man leaves) but he's usually highly emotive language like "sexual harassment" to describe it. She's not even reporting it. The man isn't her boss or anything and they don't work together.

I know I probably don't have all the story but I do know the gossip well and he does love to exagerate and I don't think it's very fair to man A to have people slinging mud at him like this.

So, deep breath AIBU?

OP posts:
LRDtheFeministDragon · 15/09/2012 14:10

No, harassment can mean something done repeatedly, but doesn't have to. Same with non-sexual harrassment.

Midgetm · 15/09/2012 14:11

The word assault crops up a few times too. I am not sure how trying and failing to kiss someone is any where near assault. Not by any legal definition anyway. He didn't even bloody kiss her. He just tried, realised it was unwelcome so stopped. Painting all women out as victims enrages me, because I am a woman, and I love my fellow women and we are largely strong, grounded and confident. Most of us are perfectly capable of shrugging this kind of incident off for what it appears to be. A silly mistake on the mans part. If he has a history or tried again, different story but there is nothing to suggest this is the case apart from the dots that other posters have drawn that hints this guy is some kind of pest. trial by mumsnet. There are many crimes against women. This does not appear to be one of them so maybe we should save our energy for the real Injustices not just some guy misreading signals and being a little foolish.

thebeesnees79 · 15/09/2012 14:14

its a dangerous world we live in. I feel genuinely sorry for my boy when he grows up if he can't ask a woman for a kiss without being branded a sex pest or harraser.
If someone keeps asking fair enough or forces a kiss then again fair enough. but to think someone likes you and find out they don't and your branded a sexual harraser that's just gone beyond pc and into stupidity.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 15/09/2012 14:15

Why couldn't he ask a woman for a kiss, thebees? Confused

That is what everyone is saying this guy should have done.

atacareercrossroads · 15/09/2012 14:15

Totally agree, if he tries it again then he deserves the label he has been given by most on here, along with a kick in the goolies.

And Im still reeling from "would you like a coffee" having some double meaning tbh, Ive asked a fair few people if they wanted a coffee from time to time (not sure which is worse, looking as if I was coming on to them or them not picking up on the double meaning that I didnt mean and not coming on to me) Confused Shock Blush

handbagCrab · 15/09/2012 14:18

If all he wanted was an Internet code then he could have asked another colleague, maybe even a male one.

Come up for a coffee after a night is a come on between people who might fancy ech other. It's a socially acceptable euphemism for let's spend some time together and see what happens. Can I use your internet code to do some work stuff is not. I've never seen it in a film, book or coffee advert.

I'm going to teach my ds to tell people he likes them, that he wants to spend time with them, not to make up bullshit work related excuses to get them on their own in a hotel room. Because I want him to be a nice guy, who respects others and is therefore in turn respected and trusted himself.

thebeesnees79 · 15/09/2012 14:20

well I will give you an example:
I fancied the pants off my husband when we were just friends and didn't have a clue if he liked me back so I took a chance and went in for a kiss.
blood lucky for me that he also felt the same because if he didn't does that make me a sex pest or sexual harraser?
now another example where I would consider the person a sexual harraser. I was dancing in a club with my best mate (my husband and his friends were also there) and some guy walks straight up to me and grabs my arse and tits. I never invited him to do that nor did I give any indication I wanted him to. This is sexual harassment. he touched me inappropriately and it was not welcome.
the world has gone crazy

atacareercrossroads · 15/09/2012 14:24

But whats the difference between "can I kiss you" and being told "no" and leaning in to someone for a kiss and being told "no"

The intent and outcome is still the same, infact personally I think someone leaning in is, weirdly, a bit less intrusive and blatent because (stay with me) for me Id be less embarassed about the situation if I could lean away and say "what you doing you daft loon" and hope to diffuse the embarrasment factor for both of us rather than having someone rather intently asking "may I kiss you now", that sort of warrants a bit of a serious response and conversation about it IMO

MNHQ
KatMumsnet · 15/09/2012 14:28

Hi there, we just wanted to point those who haven't read our Rape Myths to the right direction.

atacareercrossroads · 15/09/2012 14:30

"I'm going to teach my ds to tell people he likes them, that he wants to spend time with them, not to make up bullshit work related excuses to get them on their own in a hotel room. Because I want him to be a nice guy, who respects others and is therefore in turn respected and trusted himself."

Or indeed make up some bullshit about wanting a coffee perhaps? Hmm

Lots of double standards on here. Can you imagine the response to "AIBU to have tried to kiss a woman because she accepted my offer of coffee?"

Or the response about the tabloid reporting ".......after the victim accepted his offer of coffee......"

As I said, dangerous thinking, surprising considering the man in this OP is being made out to be some sort of sex pest.

squeakytoy · 15/09/2012 14:30

not sure how it would be relevant for the thread to read that Kat, no rape, attempted rape, or suggestion of rape has taken place.. nor have any of the parties involved suggested that there has either...

LRDtheFeministDragon · 15/09/2012 14:32

Maybe if you read it you'd understand the relevance, instead of getting confused? Smile

squeakytoy · 15/09/2012 14:33

I am not confused LRD. What do YOU think I am confused about? My mind is very clear on this.

atacareercrossroads · 15/09/2012 14:35

I see the relevance, particulary with the coffee thing. Asking someone if they want a coffee is not an invite to anything other than sharing a hot drink with someone

LRDtheFeministDragon · 15/09/2012 14:36

You can't see the relevance of one kind of sexual assault to another. And you don't know that this is sexual harrassment. Therefore IMO you are confused.

Saying you won't read something because you don't believe it's relevant before you read it is a bit daft.

squeakytoy · 15/09/2012 14:41

I have ALREADY read it thankyou. There was NO sexual assault in the incident described by the OP.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 15/09/2012 14:43

Oh, so it's just everyone else you were saying needn't bother reading it? Hmm

The OP has described an incident of sexual harrassment. The rape myths thread discusses a form of sexual assault; ie. rape.

Some people have this funny idea that there might be connections between the two, you see.

AuntieMaggie · 15/09/2012 14:47

It was unwanted sexual behaviour towards the woman so yes it is harrassment according to the equality act

We use tokens like this and the code changes every.so many seconds. If she had given.it over the phone it might not have worked the first time so at that time of night I'd have done the same and given him the token so I could get.to bed.

If he had tricked me into asking him to my room like that I'd have reported him. Completely unprofessional and unacceptable in this situation.

squeakytoy · 15/09/2012 15:04

But the OP has not described an incident of sexual harrassment. That is MY point.

I also very much doubt any sane person in any court in the land would agree that it is sexual harassment from the details given either.

MySpanielHell · 15/09/2012 15:10

But why would any court in the land be dealing with this? It would be a complaint of sexual harassment that would be dealt with using an informal procedure at work.

If every time somebody had an issue with a work colleague over anything they were unhappy about, they never mentioned it to their manager on the grounds that they were trying to make it into a court case, how would managers ever know what was going on or manage people.

Floggingmolly · 15/09/2012 15:12

Sexual harassment my arse. Harassment is defined as "behaviour intended to disturb or upset". This guy made a huge assumption, admittedly, but backed off immediately when he realised he'd misread the situation.
How did he "trick" his way into the room?

MySpanielHell · 15/09/2012 15:18

It is an also absurd situation to put women (and often younger men in) that they are judged as everything being a sign of consent. If this woman didn't complain, and then was assaulted at some future point, there'd be plenty of people then lining up to say that if she was uncomfortable with his sexual attention the first time she should have made a complaint. Even though there may be lots of very good reasons why she doesn't want to make a complaint, and I certainly wouldn't want to in such circumstances.

Because that is another classic rape myth - if you didn't report or complain about somebody's behaviour earlier, it was because you actually considered it acceptable and are therefore sending out further mixed signals as to what you actually want.

And if she had been the kind of woman who wouldn't sort out a laptop issue out of hours because the colleague was male, there'd be plenty of people lining up to say she was paranoid/sexist/a man hater/unprofessional and so on.

MySpanielHell · 15/09/2012 15:21

Molly - 'behaviour intended to disturb or upset'

That is completely untrue. There doesn't have to be a negative intention to the behaviour. That is clearly stated in the EOC guidelines.

www.equalityhumanrights.com/uploaded_files/employers/sexual_harassment_managers_questions.pdf

Flimflammery · 15/09/2012 15:24

The OP is making her mind up based on hearsay, and all these posters are making their minds up it's 'definitely' sexual harassment or not, based on second-hand hearsay. The only truth is that NONE OF US KNOW, WE WERE NOT THERE. We don't even know the story from the point of view of the woman involved, let alone the man. It's ludicrous to think you can be so sure. It just becomes speculation about gossip about gossip.

seeker · 15/09/2012 15:26

"its a dangerous world we live in. I feel genuinely sorry for my boy when he grows up if he can't ask a woman for a kiss without being branded a sex pest or harraser."

But he didn't ask for a kiss- he tried to kiss her.

And surely it isn't straight from chatting over a drink in a group to kissing is it?