to think an income of under £17k is not "living in poverty" as stated by Save the Children?

[Wigglewoo]

Ok I guess it does depend where you live etc. And how much your mortgage / housing costs are doesn't it?

But I really don't see how anyone can call an income of say the higher end of under 17k to be living in poverty.... My dh earns 14k and with tax creditsn child benefit etc we manage fine. We certainly don't struggle to eat or heat the house.. Dd has new shoes for school (one of the things cited as an indication of poverty was lack of new shoes) and we even have enough for a very small break away....

Am I being unreasonable? I appreciate tax credits do make a difference but even without these we could manage.

If you're looking to pass on clothes, then phone your local Social Work Dept, ask for "Children and Families" and they will steer you in the right direction. I agree that is better than passing on to Freecyle or charity shops as clothes should then go to people in genuine need

'I know that makes us incredibly lucky. I'm not smug about it.'

Really? What that OP? Could have fooled me! I'm allright, Jack, sod the lot of you, you're havering about being in poverty!

if people really are in such poverty, quibbling over their income is a bit tastless

There is always a shortage of wardrobes and beds from charities, if you can use these rather than freecycle as these give out the goods based on how needs them most.

We C&F SW's use charities when our budget per family has been used. I have been through budgeting with the family and often there really isn't even £17 for a canvas wardrobe left from Lidl, from the money that they get.

When did I say sod the lot of you?

I haven't been judgemental at all. I'm just asking and exploring the topic!!!

You're not asking at all. You have housing costs of £390. That's how you can do it. Every one of your posts comes across as smug and justifying yourself - well, I lived in London once, we could still manage without taxcredits, you just need to shop in Aldi like us (and have a house for £390/month), cook from scratch etc etc. In other words, if we're not all just like you, then there's no way people who have an income of £17K can be in poverty - they're just feckless and not as clever as you.

Nice! Third thread like it today, how's that for clever originality?

If you want clothes to go to places that really need them, you could phone your local women's refuge. Our local one will take decent quality stuff. They don't want sacks of rags, but if you've got clothes in decent condition in popular sizes, our one will take them. They particularly like donations of ladies & kids coats, as those tend to be expensive items to buy.

One thing I noticed when I lived (briefly) in a damp unheated house with inadequate bedding and with no means to use public transport on a wet day was how much more I needed warm clothes and hot food. These days, when I have slept in a warm house all night and have a warm house to come home to, I can quite happily do without a winter coat.

So I'm not allowed to say how we live then? Because that makes me sound smug? Nice.

Actually I wasn't being smug at all. I was trying to say that we are lucky to have low housing costs but now everyone else does- hence I mentioned I previously lived in london so I know housing costs vary.

I wanted to find out what other people thought of as "poverty". So yes my only crime was starting a thread with perhaps a deliberately provocative title so encourage some replies.

*not - not now, sorry!

Poverty depends a great deal on housing costs as has been said.

I am fairly frugal because I currently live on benefits. Half my furniture came via the charity shop locally, my sofa and sofa bee, DS's bed, my bed, the table, the cooker, the tumble dryer. The only things I have which we're new are the washing machine and cheap dining table.

I manage though because I have to.....for me t's more the panic about unexpected expenses like the car needing work. And my car is old...cost me a grand total of £250 on eBay, I sold stuff to fund buying it....and as DS is autistic I rely on it totally for getting out and about.

This summer my son has lived in 5 T shirts bought for £10 in our local Sue Ryder shop. Shoes I do buy new and come from Asda unless I am flush when we might go to Clarks!

Do I feel poor.....no because it is only me and DS. If I had four children then it would be hellish.

lacking poverty in the UK is defined as 60% below the median wage, not as the lowest x% of earners. You can theoretically increase lower wages while still keeping the median wage the same, and thus lift a large number of people out of poverty. Whether it can be done successfully is a different matter!

I do think not having a winter coat is a good indicator of poverty. No one would choose to be cold. If you are a child without warmth because your parent cannot afford it I think that would be truly awful.

Actually I wasn't being smug at all. I was trying to say that we are lucky to have low housing costs but now everyone else does- hence I mentioned I previously lived in london so I know housing costs vary

You didnt mention your £390 mortgage until 30 posts in.

I am always astonished at how expensive housing is in the London area, and I know there are plenty of reasons why people don't move away (jobs, families etc) but I don't get why so few do actually make that break.

I was renting last year on the very outskirts of a large Yorkshire town, almost rural, but still served by good public transport and with decent local shops and pubs etc. An almost brand new 4 bedroomed detached house with garden. And the rent for this? £590

What do people think about the BBC moving a lot of work out of London to Manchester? Is this a good thing, to spread jobs and housing pressure around the country?

The family Save The Children used as an examplke ahd severe dbts due to redundancy.

I can tell you from experience that £17k with debts for things taken on in good faith = poverty, whereas less can be fine if you start from a sum of zero owed each month.

Add in transports costs / housing (Save The Children expalin that at elast half of the families on that income in the UK have at elast one working parent) and the sums swing massively.

Our income went down DH became self employed; our actual spendable budget stayed the same as he now doesn't have to commute a long distance, £100 pcm in tolls alone.

And as Cory says, poor standards in housing etc add costs: DS3's room gets damp. Now we can heat it to solve it, but if would not then we'd be back where he had a constant chest infection; meaning a parent HAD to be at home with him, plus frequent changes of mouldy curtains and all the rest (some of the poorest people live in private rented, curtains go yuck, or carpets, and it is replace or be evicted).

Monkey- it is for us being near one of the areas that has benefited but I guess for every bit of work DH gets then someone else loses it. No guarantee they could move after all.

We are lucky; we could do with a bigger house for reasons of disability but frankly our 3 bed cottage in a Welsh village for under £600 a month does me just fine.

I have a friend who lived in London, monthly rent for the ONLY wheelchair adapted property she could find- no choice- was £1200 PCM. Fancy doing the rest on under £3k PA? nope me neither.

I didn't mention my housing costs until I was asked precisely because I didn't want to appear smug!! But if I avoided answering that's even worse! If you notice in my first post I clearly said it depends on housing costs!!!

For goodness sakes I'm getting so fed up with mn's these days, you can't say anything without people taking it the wrong way.

I also didn't realise there was three similar threads - I wasn't after an award in originality.

Anyway, yes I think its a good idea the bbc is moving some jobs to other parts of the country. It has to be good for the different economies doesn't it.

I think its easy for people to suggest relocating to cheaper areas but there are so many practicalities - jobs or lack of them if you can't transfer pushing a family further into poverty perhaps and of course splitting away from family / relations. Lack of affordable family housing is probably at the route of poverty. Well I think anyway - and jobs as well I suppose.

To my mind there is a big difference between being hard up & poverty. I think numerical figures can be misleading, but being poor is not being able to afford the basic necessities: food, clothing, housing & fuel. Being hard up is every penny you have being spent on necessities, being poor is simply not having enough pennies to do that, even if you shop at Aldi!
So, in different parts of the country, you will slip into poverty on different incomes.
I guess that is with regard to absolute poverty. There is then relative poverty. That is much harder altogether to define and I'll leave it to those with bigger brains than mine to slog that one out.

But OP if you know that your housing costs are particularly low and that not everyone is in your position then why is it so hard to grasp that 17k is not a fortune to many?

You know the answer to your own question dont you? or at least you should!

Maybe but I don't have a clue how housing benefit works or whether it depends area by area so not entirely, no.

Lack of affordable family housing is probably at the route of poverty

It is the stability of that housing, as well as cost, which the benefit changes are going to undo.

It has to be remebered that this will effect the new claimants, so those becoming ill or being made redundant.

The sanctioning and having to wait until time has passed for benefits to click in, plunges families into poverty as often they have to borrow at high rates just to live, so the povery cycle goes on, as when they need new furniture etc, again they have to use expensive credit.

There is less and less crisis loans being given out.

I don't think 17K is a very high income. I would struggle on it. Lived on it when younger and single but as a family with a mortgage/house rent it would be tough. There often seems to be an assumption that 'poverty' has to mean people walking round barefoot and living permanently off value bread. It doesn't have to be as extreme or as permanent as that.

I agree with expat's point that this does come across as a little patronising to people who don't understand how lucky they are to have 17k and haven't cleverly worked out all the tricks to make it stretch.

You (OP) do mention it depending on housing costs in the initial post but that didn't seem to really filter into the rest of it.

I agree with expat too that the op is a bit smug. Sorry but I do.

What cory said.
I keep making this point on every thread. You can live on very little for a while. If you have full cupboards, all mod com, clothes and shoes etc. But if you stay longer on low income then you start sinking. When shoes get smaller, things break down etc.

And i agree you spend more on some things when you are poor. Electricity/gas meters for example eat money. Laundrette more expensive than washing at home. Lack of money and car and freezer space makes it harder to use supermarket offers and so on. Easy to say it is fine when its only short terms and when you have your house, w/m, big freezer, a full wardrobe.

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