to think an income of under £17k is not "living in poverty" as stated by Save the Children?

[Wigglewoo]

Ok I guess it does depend where you live etc. And how much your mortgage / housing costs are doesn't it?

But I really don't see how anyone can call an income of say the higher end of under 17k to be living in poverty.... My dh earns 14k and with tax creditsn child benefit etc we manage fine. We certainly don't struggle to eat or heat the house.. Dd has new shoes for school (one of the things cited as an indication of poverty was lack of new shoes) and we even have enough for a very small break away....

Am I being unreasonable? I appreciate tax credits do make a difference but even without these we could manage.

Whatever minister it was had a point. Ds1 did not wear his coat once last winter, no matter how much I tried to persuade him. Still, at least it's in good condition to be passed down to ds2.

The £5 pack a mack got worn occasionally though.

Choosing not to wear one (that would not be a choice in my house BTW) is a lot different from not actually having one to wear in the first place.

Not wearing a coat because you don't want to is completely different to not wearing a coat when you are freezing cold because you don't have one.

Are you really not able to understand that?

Of course I can understand that.

I just think that as so many adults, teens and children choose not to wear coats then they cannot be considered an essential, and therefore should not be used as a measure of poverty.

Birds- seriously! What the actual fuck?
Back along there used to be vouchers for school apparel and shoes. What do we think about that?

Also you can buy a coat for school v cheaply in Tesco etc. I find it heartbreaking kids are not able to access even those . Dd has a cost for nursery that's immaculate after a year of being rolled in mud I bought in Tesco for £5. That seemed absurdly cheap next to get non nursery joules coat (I am a bit precious about her clothes) but maybe even that price is inaccessible. Sad sad.

Oh, and I allow my child the choice because he is old enough to take responsibility for his own actions within reason. I want him to learn to make his own healthy and sensible choices. If he is cold enough, he will wear a coat. Plus, he has AS, and because of his minor sensory issues would prefer to feel a little cold than wear a coat. He wears layers if he needs to (which is rare) and cheap fleecy tops can be purchased for a few pounds.

but you could exclude absolutely everything from the list of essentials then. Some people choose never to wash or drink tap water, does that mean poor people shouldn't be expected to need enough money to pay for running water?

I think not having a decent cost in winter is an absolute measure of poverty. Choice to wear it doesn't come in to it.

I think every kid has a right to decent school shoes too and not fall apart primark rubbish

FWIW I would not let my DDs, aged 8 and 4, go out in winter without a coat, no matter how many adults, teens and children were out there without. If I couldn't afford to buy each of them a coat from Tesco, then yes, I would consider myself to be living in poverty.

If you are very poor a coat is a lifesafer tbh - I've certainly known people to wear coats inside, even in bed, because they can't afford to put the heating on. Thousands of people die every year from being too cold/fuel poverty.

It is about to be repeated on ITV+1.

Also you can buy a coat for school v cheaply in Tesco

But not for older children. Teenagers are very expensive and it is this group that has the least spent on them in terms of lesuire by the LA and top up's by transport.

Housing estates fill the fields that i once played in as a child.

That is the thing, these children are not being loaded into cars and back to heated homes, they are playing in the streets, sitting in their beds, not adequately dressed.

Cory's point about 'domestic infrastructure' is spot on.

Being poor when you are setting up home in a new area/for the first time/after fleeing violence etc is very different from having a reduced cash flow in a middle class home.

Take fuel bills for example- big difference between well insulated new boiler gas system on monthly direct debit in south England. You could easily double or treble that cost for someone up north paying a meter for plug in electric heaters in a draughty single glazed old house.

I think it also dep[ends how long a family has managed on a low income for.

It's relatively easy to crack on for a short period. But when it goes on for years and stuff needs replacing etc and debts build up and it's yet another xmas/birthday to manage without much, it becomes grinding.

Word factory - I totally agree and raise this point often in discussions about poverty. It's a bit like the 2nd hand thing. We often jump on posters who man about bring given 2nd hand stuff but I think it's because of you can afford to buy new if you want to there's no stigma to 2nd hand - I buy dd stuff 2nd hand all the time but then I'm not in poverty. If 2nd hand it used etc is your only option year upon year it's a v different story and very hard and miserable.

I worked with refugees on social housing for a while and confirm their living costs were v often higher due to no double glazing, crap boilers and bloody key meters - id like to smash every single key meters and ther theiving bastard energy companies who supply them.
Then there are the health problems that come with poor housing. At the refugee place we had some dehumidifiers donated and we were always dragging them from one horrible private key to another trying to dry out walls so some kid with asthma didn't get any worse for a few weeks and that was in high summer! I dread to think how bloody cold those flats were in the winter.
It's not just families in benefits either. I know a lovely couple with a small da who both work and live in a small flat with a horrendous damp problem. No asthma yet but recurrent ear infections for the child. They simply can't afford to move

We've lived on 13.5 -14k for the past 4 years (both went back to studying f/t and work p/t) and we are far from living in poverty. Our rent is only £375 per month though. 17k would mean a fab holiday every year for us...

I know this isn't the question of the thread so apologise, but is there a list of places somewhere where you can donate old clothes etc that reach these families?
I know there's charity shops but those near me are a fortune ( think £5 for a non branded kids jacket), so I'm not inclined to give all old stuff as those as you say in dire poverty can't afford

The bags they bring around sometimes I'm never sure about what they do with them..

Do local centres/ refugees accept these things? Or schools/ nurseries in deprived areas? Kinda thinking where they might have a stash and can just give a coat for example to a child who always arrives in one too small/ old etc., ideas?

I was the kid who often didn't have coat as a child, because my DM figured that if she sent me without a coat, people would think I'd chosen not to wear one but if I wore the three sizes too small coat that I'd had for years, people would realise she couldn't afford a new one.

For me, it meant spending many, many mornings wet and shivering in the classroom because my jumper did nothing to protect me from the rain. Not having anywhere to put my hands to protect them from a freezing breeze in winter so some mornings I sat there crying because my hands hurt that badly as they warmed back up. Being lectured and told off by teachers who presumed that I had indeed chosen not to wear one and brought it all on myself. I was just as cold at home, I have memories of being the helpful child helping the teacher clear up the whole classroom because I wanted to stay in the warm as long as possible before having to go home.

Needless to say, I absolutely consider a coat a necessity. If my daughter doesn't want to wear hers, she doesn't always have to (within reason), but I hope to God she will never know what it's like to not have one.

I know our children's centre takes clothes in for under 5s, they either distrubute them themselves or they have a swapping rail so people can just take/leave/swap whatever they want need without having to ask.

Not sure about older kids.

Nobody living in this country, in 2012, should go hungry, and certainly not children.

It is absurd to the point of surrealist to blame people for being either lazy or inefficient.

Increase the minimum wage and watch employers invest more in their employees. There will be more financial stability for families and bad employers will go elsewhere. Alongside some actual productive solutions to make the best use of the unemployed and disabled, whether voluntary work or training this strategy will work long term.

This is what will bring the UK out of the recession, not endless buck-passing and fast cheap loans.

I'm sorry, spotty. That must have been really tough.

It's very easy to be critical of TC and labour's approach to improving child poverty, but it's a hell of a lot better than what's happening now. Children shouldn't be punished for their parents mistakes.

I hope to God she will never know what it's like to not have one.

This is the thing, I think. There's a huge difference between a child who won't wear a coat, and a child who doesn't even have that choice. How awful that must have been for you :(

I used to give away my kids' old clothes on freecycle, but I've become slightly sceptical as to whether children who actually need them are getting them. So I'd be interested in knowing where they can be put to use, as well.

On a side note I always feel so sorry for children who are in poverty at christmas time - how do you explain to a child that father christmas doesn't / can't visit ? That makes me feel so sad, especially as they must all take part in the build up / excitement at school at christmas :(

the poverty line is calculated as the lowest X percent of the population

so, say in monaco, if you used the same % as the UK there'ld be millionnaires bellow the poverty line (the help etc tend to live just outside in france)

that's why its a bit when charities say that they don't want anyone living bellow the poverty line, because if you gave everyone an extra 50K a year, the same amount of people would be bellow the poverty line IYKWIM

I think that's the point though Lacking - previously STC has not found this country's bottom 40% worthy of concern, now they do. The fact that 61% of those STC are concerned about have working parents is even worse.