to think an income of under £17k is not "living in poverty" as stated by Save the Children?

[Wigglewoo]

Ok I guess it does depend where you live etc. And how much your mortgage / housing costs are doesn't it?

But I really don't see how anyone can call an income of say the higher end of under 17k to be living in poverty.... My dh earns 14k and with tax creditsn child benefit etc we manage fine. We certainly don't struggle to eat or heat the house.. Dd has new shoes for school (one of the things cited as an indication of poverty was lack of new shoes) and we even have enough for a very small break away....

Am I being unreasonable? I appreciate tax credits do make a difference but even without these we could manage.

But your income will be more than 14k if you add on the CTC and CB won't it?

I don't think it is poverty although it can be for some people.

I think under 17k is low, yes. Not sure about poverty. But housing costs are high most places so I think that would be very difficult.

Living costs make all the difference here- how did they arrive at the figure? Is it an average?

Also, does it include tax credits etc?

Here in London, £17k is very difficult for a family to live on.

Yup in London it's less than our rent alone ( only have a one bed flat!)

So no we couldn't survive

Also housing costs vary hugely from place to another so it is hard to make it a general claim. I did read an article which listed some of the things they claimed would indicate living in poverty and I don't think they were entirely accurate imo.

I will try and find the article.

They have to supply a definition, as relative poverty means different things over time.

It's simply making clear what they mean by poverty in terms of this specific report. It's not intended as a definition, just a descriptor of the population they are studying in this one report.

Yeah that's what I mean about the tax credits etc - its a bonus but we could still manage without them.. You just have to be very careful, shop at aldi, cook from scratch, buy special offers, ebay things, etc.

To me poverty means not having enough to eat, being cold in winter and the kids wearing shoes and clothes that don't fit... I'm not sure that's impossible on.the higher end of nearing the 17k ... Round here (south norfolk) 17k is a good salary! :)

If that is the regular income as children grow up, then the effects can be that the family are living in poverty.

The child poverty map of the UK has shown that there are 'pockets' of poverty and it tends to be the working poor.

You have to remember that if someone is taking tempory work then top up benefits are not always regular.

Millions go unclaimed in benefits a year and some of these should have gone to families.

There has been calls to rethink allof the governments expenditure, including oversees aid (particulary to India, who have spent more on three war ships)and redirect it to the poorest in our society.

I don't know why anyone doubts that there is poverty, in our society, relative poverty is very damaging and shouldn't be happening.

BBC doing report about child poverty this morning government figures say a anything less than £210 / week for a family ( parent & child ) is below the poverty line.

I just found it interesting really... Its so different depending where you live isn't it.

Also poverty is different to different people - I had a friend who thought she was hard up because she couldn't afford to send her two children to private school and she wouldn't consider moving to a better area for better state schools.. To her poverty (or low income may be better in terms of word choice!) Meant not affording private school...!

Not meaning to cause a bun fight.. Just an interesting topic really!

To me poverty means not having enough to eat, being cold in winter and the kids wearing shoes and clothes that don't fit

That happens in the UK, i see this regulary, especially in women that have fled DV and need to start again from scratch, amongst others.

There are good reasons for cycles of poverty and we will go back there with the change to welfare benefits, including the cutting down of the social fund.

Why not just believe those who are working with those in need?

IMO your rent/mortgage is the deciding factor.

Isn't the average rent about £800 pcm now? I think it's fair to say that kind of rent would be a struggle for a family on £14k. Basically if your rent/mortgage payments are cheap then you need to count yourself lucky frankly.

Social housing isn't easy to get in most areas, even with hb topping up the rest is going to take a huge chunk of money. I don't even know if the employed would be entitled to it?

Also poverty is different to different people

But not to those that are working with the families.

The families, themselves are not turning up for handouts claiming poverty, they are being identified.

There will be children not going back to school this week as a uniform could not be provided (senior school).

Hmm we are OK for money and earned just over 26k last year so no tax credits. Our bills each month are just under £2000 (including house/food/utilities etc) so we definitely wouldn't survive on less. We live in the south but in a HA house. I suppose if we didn't have debt (car/loan) we could survive on less.

I think these things have so many factors it's hard to give a definitive answer.

Poverty is not defined in absolute terms but relative - below 60% of the median income. It is not about subsistence but ability to participate in the society one lives in. So, if it is normal and expected to have a mobile phone and Internet connection and without these you cannot easily access job information and normal leisure activities, these things are considered essential not luxury.

StC may have used their own definition and arriving at that is probably part of the point of their report.

IME people on low pay often underestimate what others earn and disbelieve he average wage, just as people on high pay overestimate and disbelieve from the other end. Everyone wants to think they are normal, even when they really are not.

Depends on many things and how many adults/kids are living on the 17k.
Save the children website states a family living on 15k being 2 adults and 2 children struggle to eat and pay fuel bills.
I assume that's total household income including tax credits but I thought TC were supposed to raise your income up to a certain level do making working part time viable etc.

Yes you are probably right it is to do with housing costs... I wonder if it would have been more accurate to look at finances after housing costs... Or maybe not give an actual figure... I know for example that many families are really struggling, I absolutely do not doubt that, but I think pulling a figure out is confusing to many people as lots of people do manage on less than that and can't appreciate the differing factors... So maybe their good work as a charity is undermined? Who knows.

I think your perception might be off, living where you do...I lived in Norfolk for many years; house prices were unbelievably cheap and I lived comfortably on a fraction of what i do now.

I struggle a bit now, but still live in a relatively cheap area. I suppose if you are looking at the average relative data nationwide, it will make more sense

I am surprised at 17K though..

It would be interesting to see the average people have after housing. I suspect that any figure like that would be treated as a 'choice' by a lot of people. I would expect lots of comments along the lines of 'they shouldn't have bought an expensive house' or 'move to a cheaper area' without much thought into the realities putting that advice into practice would bring about.

If the average rent is £800 PCM then most people would struggle on £14 k.

If that's full time work it would be hard going taking in to account any childcare costs, transport etc.

14k would pay rent and and council tax for me and not much else!

Poverty in UK is in relative terms (sadly absolute poverty does exist in other countries).

The report is presumably also defining "family" in terms of presence of children of a specified age range.

Save the Children won't have gone further into this, because their aim is no to start a bunfight on how to describe some of the poorest people in UK, but to get people talking about the effect of low income on children.

That's true.. I appreciate norfolk is quite cheap but I did live 26 years in london until 4 years ago... Our council tax / electric / water is still pretty much the same. I think the actual cost of buying a house is much less.. That may be the difference.

I don't know but could it be that £17k is the level at which you fall in the gap of not earning a comfortable wage but not earning little enough for much in the way of tax credits and the like?

I'm not sure it is a smooth transition up the income levels and there is a point where a pay rise makes you poorer because you lose so much support.

It depends I don't drink or smoke or get out much but my kids have new shoes even if I did weap at cost of text books needed on top of uniform

But if did not have H/A house I be stuffed

Also my DLA and if loose that under the new PIP when comes in then I shall be totally screwed

3 bed average rent here is around 1250-1400