to think an income of under £17k is not "living in poverty" as stated by Save the Children?

[Wigglewoo]

Ok I guess it does depend where you live etc. And how much your mortgage / housing costs are doesn't it?

But I really don't see how anyone can call an income of say the higher end of under 17k to be living in poverty.... My dh earns 14k and with tax creditsn child benefit etc we manage fine. We certainly don't struggle to eat or heat the house.. Dd has new shoes for school (one of the things cited as an indication of poverty was lack of new shoes) and we even have enough for a very small break away....

Am I being unreasonable? I appreciate tax credits do make a difference but even without these we could manage.

Thehuman- precisely - I rent a fab 3 bed terrace for £775 a month and that seems high to me. If the rent was £1400 upwards for that then dd and I would be in a one bed flat - v different lifestyle. I'm in Devon and even outside my city rent is a lot more. I'm v fortunate

OP do you live in private or social housing?

Also the threshold for council tax benefit is high and the weekly income thru assess you on include tax credits etc. I'm nowhere near qualifying for any HB or CTB despite only working part time and a line parent. Tax credits raise my income by a third and I would struggle without them and no money whatsoever for anything but essentials. Actually I'm not sure I could pay my nursery or fuel bill.

I haven't time to do a theoretical benefit calculator, but just to give people an idea, working on an average rent of £800 and one salary of £17k that would leave £370 approx for everything else. For a family of 2 adults and 2 children that really isn't much, not forgetting hidden costs like commuting or running a car for at least one of the adults to be able to earn the wage in the first place.

Presuming stc worked out £17 to include all available benefits, social/affordable housing is what really makes to difference to people's quality of life.

Private. Our house is worth 160k, 3 bed semi detatched. I owned half outright due to some careful downsizing from london and also workingin a reasonably paid marketing job so our mortgage is now 390 a month. I know that makes us incredibly lucky. I'm not smug about it. But if we had to afford the 800ish that would get us a 3 bed semi renting round here I think we could do it... Would be less spending money etc. I think the difference in housing costs across the uk is not proportionate to the difference in salary.

Mm just realised I am including tax credits in that hypothetical 800 a month renting... Maybe the magic 17k doesn't take housing costs / tax credits into account... Hmmm.

£370!!! That would leave me £70 a month after nursery to eat heat clothe etc - and there's only a 2 year old and I in my house!

Someone who hasn't downsized and managed to achieve a mortgage of £360 a month would probably struggle on £17k. Especially if they are forced into private renting due to the lack of housing stock in the social housing sector.

Bare in mind that is based on an £800 rent, a couple of hundred quid cheaper makes a huge difference.

I wonder if STC worked out £17k on minimum wage + average benefit entitlement?

Impossible to generalise because it depends on your outgoings.

How are childcare costs accounted for, did they say?

From Wiki:

"Poverty is defined by the Government as ?household income below 60 percent of median income?"

"This ... is after income tax and national insurance have been deducted from earnings and after council tax, rent, mortgage and water charges have been paid. It is therefore what a household has available to spend on everything else it needs."

So what you pay in rent or mortgage is immaterial, it's what you have left afterwards that counts. It is possible for someone to put themselves below the poverty line by buying (or renting) a property beyond their means, although I imagine (hope) mortgage lenders would give appropriate advice.

It's threads like these which shows me that people do not have a clue how many live in our society, which if i hadn't of seen these, i wouldn't believe that there is this lack of knowledge.

I see poverty every day which is far removed from house prices and internet connection.

We obviously need good modern day drama's which show how life is for some.

Perhaps the problemis that the soaps are all venturing towards portraying a glossy glamouros country.

Perhaps that's why STC used a household income WMittens. To say households have £300 disposable income after essential housing costs is far to ambiguous to get their point across. It would lead to a lot of speculation about people's financial decisions.

I would also add to the original op, that Ime low paid positions rarely pay more that statutory sick pay, many families have no opportunity to provide themselves savings for a buffer should anything go wrong. One week off with flu for example, could have an awful impact for a considerable time afterwards.

To me poverty means not having enough to eat, being cold in winter and the kids wearing shoes and clothes that don't fit... I'm not sure that's impossible on.the higher end of nearing the 17k ... Round here (south norfolk) 17k is a good salary!

Ive experienced that in the not so distant past.

Norfolk is cheap! rents/house prices are cheap and IME lots of aspects of living costs are cheap too.

If you were renting privately or didnt have such a low mortgage you wouldnt be so comfortable on your household income.

YABU to think that just because you particular circumstances are OK that the statement in general must be wrong.

I think it also depends on how long you've been poor.

We have had a comfortable income for many years now. This means we have a kitchen stacked full of pots and pans, an efficient heating system, a modern cooker, a well insulated house and everything you need to carry out repairs. Even though we eat very well and do not deny ourselves, we are still spending far less money than we did when we lived in rented accommodation with a shared kitchen and few facilities.

If we needed to, it would be very easy for us to live on lentils and save money. Less so if you have never had a chance to build up your domestic infra-structure, so to speak.

OP - advanced warning that the problem with rural poverty will be when your DC are old enough to go to college, transport won't be sorted by the LEA and there's no EMA anymore. A bus ticket will be at least £20 a week, if there's any buses running. If there aren't it costs a couple of thousand pounds to learn to drive and costs around £2k if not more pa to insure a young driver.

Wow 800 a month here be a 1 bed flat maybe a small 2 bed if lucky .

Wow 800 a month here be a 1 bed flat maybe a small 2 bed if lucky .

I wasn't bashing stc. I'm just exploring the general idea that 17k is a low salary.

I do think its all relative. I also think a lot of middle class people can't believe anyone could possibly be happy or manage on less than (picks number out at random) say 40k but lots of people can and do have a decent life on less than this. Hence the same thinking about under 17k - I'm not sure its possible to say everyone with an income of under 17k is living in poverty, its too dependable on circumstances.

Well, no, of course some people manage fine, but it's wrong to say that because there are exceptions in unusual circumstances (your mortgage is very low, for example) the definition is wrong.

The definition is probably based on current average circumstances.

don't you think maybe the experts at a childrens charity know a bit more about child poverty than you do?
Arguing about how much exactly people should be able to get by on and whether people are poor enough for your liking is pretty low, especially when you live mortgage free.
and its based on averages, ffs.

17k income and 17k salary are two different things. Which one do you think is enough?