About tipping in America

[AnnaLiza]

I was in LA last week and decided to get a haircut so I went to a salon near the hotel which had good reviews. The owner was the sole hairdresser and did a decent job at cutting my hair but it was by no means the best haircut I've ever had. Anyway, when I was paying ($85) his secretary asked "so are you leaving a tip for Nico today?". I must have gone purple as I was not expecting that...I then said "I don't think it's necessary" and hurried out as quick as I could, feeling like the meanest person ever, which I'm not at all.
I can just about undertstand tipping the waiter when there's no national minimum and they rely on tips for a living...but what's the justification for asking for a tip when you're a professional who charges $85 for a haircut? I find it very rude to be asked for money and then made to feel like shit for not forking out more. If you think $85 is not enough then just charge more and let people decide if they want to pay for your services.
Am I missing something?

AnnaLiza Fri 31-Aug-12 16:46:12
And I also agree that service in the US is pretty crap too.
Example: posh restaurant, waitress asks "how was your day so far?". Stops by every 5 minutes to ask if everything is alright. Then she notices you've finished you're in course. She clears the table and asks if you want dessert. Incidentally you do want dessert but perhaps not just yet...perhaps you want to enjoy the conversation with your friends a bit longer...Hang on, what is that on the table? It's a bill and you're strongly encouraged to move on if you haven't ordered something else SWIFTLY.
Is that good service??

Refer to comments made earlier about Brits having a reputation for not tipping and why a waitress might want to get rid of you as soon as humanly possible.

HmmThinking
Refer to comments made earlier about Brits having a reputation for not tipping and why a waitress might want to get rid of you as soon as humanly possible

this is harsh and uncalled for. You might disagree, but this could have been written by myself and by thousands of others from lots of different countries and cultures. This is a general sentiment about the U.S.American restaurant culture.

Get over it, Novack - you just lost the war. It doesn't matter how. Cornwallis surrendered. People who surrender to the enemy have lost the war. So my comment that Americans took their independence from the British is correct.

I've had great service in the US by the way. Give me a cheerful yet fake American any day of the week over a surly yet honest European who's having a bad day and wants to make everyone else suffer for it. Germany was the worst in the world for customer service, in my experience. If the waiter hated his job, he made sure you knew about it and you would barely be looked at, never mind smiled at, no matter how much you tipped.

Actually, you should go on holidays there Novack. You might enjoy the refreshing honesty of the waiters. They do expect tips though as part of German culture - 'Trinkgeld', or drinking money as it's called there - but you can just enjoy disrespecting German culture by refusing to tip.

hmmthinking you're wrong. I wasn't referring to the topping issue in my example. We tipped the waitress 16% on that occasion and I do normally tip restaurants staff over 15% even though I loathe doing it. Im my example I just wanted to male the point that it's a bit of a paradox to act all friendly but then present a bill as soon as someone is finished eating! I think that's what us Europeans find "fake" about service in America.

worldcitizen I tend to think that half of the quality of service you get depends on the attitude YOU give to the staff too. So if you go in with an attitude that screams "I think Americans are fake and go away you stupid waitress" you are less likely to get good service. They will come and ask you if stuff is alright because they have to as its expected and the way they do things.

I don't think its just about the staff, its also about the customers. The customer is always right is a phrase that is only true to a point.

The problem with tipping it seems, is, if it is for good service you should give it at the beginning of your meal then your 'server' knows whether to be rude to you or not . When you are hols you are rarely going to go back there so what is the incentive to tip better (if being nice is not a big consideration i mean). If tipping 'ensures good service' how will the staff know? Apart from guess by your accent? Which is why when we are in North America it is difficult because we do tip 20% but often get treated like we wont. That then makes you not want to tip 20% and it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. We do smile and chat like loons to waiters to try and make it clear

It's not fake. The waiters are not pretending they like you and have no interest in your money. They are quite simply being cheerful as part of the window-dressing of a blatantly commercial transaction. It's like a company might put flowers on reception, it doesn't mean "I love you" (which would be a lie) it means "Our customers, from whom we make money, feel better with nice things to look at, which is good for business". It's weird to think that they should somehow be ashamed of billing you for the food - not that I don't understand it, I am British and do have hangups about money, but it is weird not to see that they just don't, and are not pretending anything by being cheerful and chatty at the same time as charging you for something and wanting to make as much money as possible.

Where does the money go if not to provide decent pay for the staff?
Wages are poor -- overheads are high. Profit margins tend to be very low and restaurants come and go a lot as a result. A restaurant owner might be paying health insurance for his or her staff on top of rent and business costs which would include insurance - fire, flood, claims made by customers for injury or illness as well as workers comp which tends to be very high in the restaurant industry. There is no NHS nor anything remotely like it in the US.

As mentioned by Poopadoop, the waiters are taxed on anticipated tip earnings, which is calculated from the restaurant turnover. If you don't tip the waiter still gets taxed. The 'performance' that Novack complained about is what each waiter has honed in order to extract tips and they only do what works. Poopadoop is right to characterise it as wait staff being 'allowed to work' in a restaurant, with the aim being to beat the IRS estimation of about 15% of each bill being tipped. How much you make as a waitress is up to you to figure out.

I agree with those who have said the addition of a service charge to bills in Europe is really presumptuous.

I found customer service in general far better in the US than anywhere else.

My DD1 spent a few months in Paris this year with her American university but used her Irish passport for ID purposes when she was there, and found she paid less for tickets to various things.

AnnaLiza -- if you're occupying the seat you can't just sit and chat. You eat and pay and move on with your life elsewhere. You are paying for the food, not to rent the chair. The table is expected to provide X amount of income per night. It can only do that if X number of parties sit there or if you order (let's say) ten meals while you sit.

$85 for a haircut in LA was incredibly cheap. This is obv a hairdresser who makes his money by volume of clients rather than a reputation for being exclusive. The receptionist asked you if you were going to leave a tip so that she could provide a small tip envelope for you where you could discreetly place whatever amount you wanted. The little envelopes would have a space for your name and thus when you phoned next time they could either fall over themselves accommodating you or tell you they were booked up.

Confusing 1781 with 1814 is only out by, oh... 33 years.

Sorry but the Austrians I'm sitting with say nobody leaves any thing but the odd change to the nearest euro in Germany. Still feel free to keep overpaying for your meals. I won't be when I'm there again before Christmas or in the new year for skiing.

HmmThinking I think lots of your posts where actually great and have explained the differences very well, and I do know what is expected of the wait staff and in fact Americans do expect to get treated that way and it's part of feeling cared for.
I personally have a hard time with this type of service as I feel hassled, rushed, and not served well. This is a response you would get from lots of people from around the world visiting or living in America, well after a while one just gets used to it. But I do know that's the way it is.

Napa And speaking about Germany. Well Germans have never tried to sell themselves to the world for great customer service And they also do not give a flying fuck.
And it is up to you to leave your tip or don't. The service was shite then it should reflect in the amount of tip or no tip at all for that matter. No rocket science.

Mathanxiety - when you phoned next time they coud either fall over themselves accommodating you or tell you they were booked up

That is one of the major things wrong with the system of tipping. Good service providers should provide a service no matter how large or little your tip. It's stuff like that that makes Americans in service roles come across as fake. They couldn't give a shit whether or not they are providing a good service, all they care about is the tip.

Same with the situation where they give you your bill whether or not you are ready to leave or not. They have just spent all that time being faux cheerful and interested in you, but they can't wait to get rid of you because they want the next tip.

I just think that's a horrible attitude towards customers. Level of service should be consistent, consistently good, and not dependant on how much someone perceives you will tip.

'Im my example I just wanted to male the point that it's a bit of a paradox to act all friendly but then present a bill as soon as someone is finished eating!'

Eating in a restaurant is a transaction. You are not a guest in someone's home. When you are finished you either pay or order more.

Part of doing business in the US is smiling at customers and being pleasant. It doesn't mean they are your new best friend if they smile when they take your order, ask you if you need more bread, refill your water, ask how your meal is, etc. That is how they are trained to treat customers.

And it is not necessarily fake charm either. It is very British to assume it is fake and also to see some paradox in expecting to be paid for goods or services and presenting a bill with a smile. Spending money is considered a good thing in America. It is assumed that if you didn't expect to be spending money cheerfully and seeing cheerful faces accepting it you would have stayed home.

If you want surly treatment, try bringing something back to Walmart two days after Christmas and you are still not assured of it. People in the US tend to be convivial and to be grateful that they have somewhere to work. It is part of the culture.

Outraged, how far would you carry that?
Would you open a shop, and let people come in and take stuff, and smile at them, and fetch everyone carrier bags and things in different sizes, and then ask them how much they want to pay, and keep doing that all day every day, even to the people who pay nothing?

In terms of 'feeling rushed' in a restaurant, I do think there are real difference on what the norm is around the world.

I've been to various places and found that depending on the country, it depends on how long you are expected to occupy your table. In some countries you are expected to sit at the table and you are expected to chat and drink for ages after you finish your food. We've, on occasion, found this a bit frustrating when we've wanted to eat and run and the waiter seems to have disappeared off the face of the earth. We are getting better about this one, but its hard to get used to.

I went to a wedding last year in the states and was sat with a bunch of expats. They all commented on the differences they found living there and being served in restuarants - one of big moans was how once you finished your food they would remove your plate rather than waiting for everyone on the table to finish their food before doing so.

They also struggled with the portion sizes until they realised that the norm was not to necessarily eat everything on your plate, whereas as Brits they had always been taught to clean your plate.

Of course we weren't being rushed as there was no limit on the time on the turnover on the table as it was a wedding and the room was booked for the entire night. It was just the way things are done there. Just different.

In short, service varies enormously from place to place too and its really worth thinking about when you are thinking about 'good' and 'bad' service.

mathanxiety I think your explanations are so spot-on and this is truly how Americans view the restaurant business. But I still don't like it

makes me always wonder how restaurants in other countries survive, when it is possible to feel like in my extended living room???

I have had indifferent service in many places around the world but the only place I've actually have waiting staff be totally rude is in the US. I've had great service there too of course, but it often seemed to be great or awful but nothing in between. (I had an American accent when I lived there so they weren't picking up on Britishness either)

In Down And Out In Paris And London, the skint Orwell talks about a cafe where you go to get work in restaurants. The form is that you can stay half an hour per cup of coffee you buy. If you haven't found work in half an hour you have to leave or find enough money for more coffee. I doubt very much they had signs up about this. There are and have always been unspoken rules about when you are outstaying your welcome in a commercial establishment.

Agree with the above poster about taking up space but not ordering. I have worked in loads on central London pubs (as have friends - as well as being a customer on many occasions!) and have a lot of times seen Europeans taking up tables and not ordering anything and when you ask them if they want something they cheerily say 'no thanks' and continue to sit chatting for an hour nursing 1 coffee. They certainly aren't doing a 'when in rome'!

We recently came back from Milan and were bewildered how they made any money. People sitting with one or 2 drinks between 5 posing for an hour in a busy bar/cafe in the most expensive part of the city. I kept counting what people had and how long they stayed and saying incredulously to DP 'how the fuck do these people get paid'?

HmmThinking
I've been to various places and found that depending on the country, it depends on how long you are expected to occupy your table. In some countries you are expected to sit at the table and you are expected to chat and drink for ages after you finish your food

yes I can see that and would like to add that in some countries it is even expected to take your time and have something to drink first and then order and not rush the personnel...

Vezzie, how is that the same?

If I opened a shop I would have set prices for things that people wanted to consume or take home with them, but I would be equally polite to everyone that came in through the doors, even if they just had a look round and bought nothing.

In Italy and Spain the customer service is if you are there at the table then the place stays open until you the customer decide it's time to go home after you've finished drinking chatting etc. whether that be 11.30 pm on a quiet Monday or 3 am on a Thursday night and that is when you'll be invited for a glass on the house and enoy a convivial atmosphere.

Department stores such as Harrods, the KDW in Berlin or Alsterhaus in Hamburg or some others in Europe. Or high end hotels in Europe have been known exactly for that. Same treatment and same service to everyone. It doesn't matter if you buy chocolate or an elephant. Doesn't matter if you stay a week in a suite or sit and have one coffee.

Also the not ordering is something i have noticed friends do more and more. We meet in a pub, maybe 5 of us, and 3 have a tap water. I feel so embarassed.

I went on a work drink once, and out of 7 people i was the only one who ordered a drink, 3 asked for tap water and 3 said they wanted nothing and sat and chatted in the pub for an hour. This was 6pm Fri night in W1 so peak time and we took up a table for 8. I was and never went for a drink with them again.

Outraged, because:

a. if you are a restaurant or coffee shop the pleasure of sitting in your lovely premises (which cost a fortune) is part of the service, and should be paid for, which is generally understood even if not printed on a price list, and;
b. There is a continuum, in terms of exacting payment, between expecting people to pay something but never ever ever mentioning it, and having hired potentially violent thugs who demand money and count it out before giving the goods / service. Both the forms being discussed here (having a custom that tips are expected and hinting if the tips don't come (US); having a price list on the menu and expecting the people will pay when you bring the food although you haven't seen the colour of their money, or actually said "I will bring you a sandwich if you give me a fiver" you do not expect them to do a runner or to have to call the police or get thuggish with them (UK)) are different points within this continuum. Until you start knee-capping or extorting or inventing new unilateral customs that no one else is aware of, it's not as wildly different as you seem to think.

Novack - in Italy (Rome) and Spain (Barcelona and Madrid) I have been brought my bill without asking on numerous occasions and told they are closing (between 10-11pm). I actually found Rome the rudest i had ever encountered for that. We had our bill twice brought to us while we still eating our main. It was August tho and a lot of the city was shut, so not sure if that had something to do with it.