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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think rape should not be considered a form of sex

130 replies

CailinDana · 23/08/2012 16:10

In my mind, sex is a caring act completed between two people who are comfortable with each other. It involves an understanding about what each other likes and dislikes, and a constant awareness of each other, so that if one partner starts to feel uncomfortable the other picks up on that and checks what the matter is, and stops if needs be.

The impression given by media discussions about rape is that sex is something a woman either agrees to or doesn't agree to. The issue of consent is contentious because it is not the experience of most people who have had normal sexual contact that there is agreement or disagreement, it is just a constant process where through body language, eye contact, verbalisations (not necessarily words), physical response and laughter you and your partner send each other signals that everything is ok or not ok. A person who genuinely wants to engage in sex will want to do so only if their partner is responding positively, as for a non-rapist that is the main reward and turn-on in sex. Without that response, most normal people would feel deflated (literally or figuratively!) and not be able to continue. It's not a matter of "yes" or "no," it's a matter of ongoing mutual respect where each partner is highly aware of the others' state of mind at all times. In a caring situation such as this, the likelihood that you will go ahead and do something that your partner really doesn't want or like is very low - you will see straight away that they are not happy and you will stop.

Rape is not sex. It is not a caring act. Just as stealing is not a form of borrowing, rape is not a form of sex. It is a denial of the other person's right to have control over their own body, and any level of that denial - whether it be holding the person down, or not stopping half way through sex because they were enthusiastic to begin with - turns the act from sex into rape. Once the sense of awareness of the partner is gone, sex ceases to happen.

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Smellslikecatspee · 23/08/2012 16:11

Totally agree.

DolomitesDonkey · 23/08/2012 16:15

I agree. Have been raped twice, it was nothing to do with an expression of love using my body. It may as well have been a punch in the face. I was physically assaulted, there is no comparison.

CailinDana · 23/08/2012 16:18

Just to add, I believe that if at any point during a sexual encounter you felt a partner disregarded your wishes, or took no notice of your wishes, seemed only to be fulfilling their own desires, or didn't even wait for your participation (as in my case, as I was asleep) then that was rape. For a sexual encounter not to be rape, both parties have to be entirely comfortable with what is happening, or if they are not entirely comfortable then they should be able to say stop and be heard immediately.

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CailinDana · 23/08/2012 16:18

Sorry that should say "and be heard and obeyed immediately."

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Pseudo341 · 23/08/2012 16:21

I was about to query that a one night stand is a caring act but you've made me reconsider, you're both there by mutual consent for mutual enjoyment even if you have not intention of seeing each other again. I think you have a very good point OP, though I suspect there'll be a specific scientific definition somewhere of PIV is sex.

DolomitesDonkey, I really don't know what to say, that's absolutely horrendous. I hope you're okay now and have been able to move on.

CailinDana · 23/08/2012 16:25

I would say sex is a caring act even in a one night stand Pseudo. In a decent ONS you both give each other pleasure, which is inherently caring. Anything less than that and it's at best a bit shit and at worst rape. I'm not a fan of the ONS mainly because of the danger of hurting each other either intentionally or otherwise - sex makes you so vulnerable that going into it with a stranger is a risk IMO.

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Spuddybean · 23/08/2012 16:27

I agree. I'm not sure why people say things like 'he had sex with her when she was asleep/so drunk she couldn't move' um then he raped her when she was asleep/so drunk she couldn't move, sex didn't come into it. Like not being able to consent makes it ambiguous. Very odd.

CailinDana · 23/08/2012 16:29

For me, saying "he had sex with her while she was asleep" is like saying "he had a conversation with her while she was asleep." How can you have sex with someone who isn't actually participating?

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LindyHemming · 23/08/2012 16:30

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Birdsgottafly · 23/08/2012 16:30

I think that anyone knowledable sees rape as a violent, abusive, oppressive act against the person.

CailinDana · 23/08/2012 16:36

The problem Birds is when people start talking about "grey areas" - as in "that wasn't rape because she said she would have sex with him" or "that wasn't rape because she didn't say stop." If a person doesn't enthusiastically engage in a sexual act and his/her partner carries on regardless, then that is rape. If a person claims that they didn't realise that their partner wasn't enjoying it, that is tantamount to admitting to rape in my book - it means the rapist was not taking into account his/her partner, so much so that they actually didn't know whether their partner was participating or not.

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TroublesomeEx · 23/08/2012 16:43

You are absolutely right.

In my mind, there are no grey areas anyway, yet even just reading your definition has made it so clear, and no unquestionable that if that were the definition/explanation adopted universally, there would never again be any confusion.

Spuddybean · 23/08/2012 16:44

So many people i know tho do think there are grey areas. I have woken up 4 times while staying at others houses (none boyfriends) with them trying to wake me up by 'getting me in the mood' and inserting their fingers into me. Not one of my female or male friends thinks this is assault despite my labia being swollen, bruised and on one occasion cut quite badly from finger nails.

My mum can watch the film the accused and still say the way jodie fosters character was dancing/dressed meant she owed one of the men sex at least, however the subsequent joining in was 'sort of rape' Confused But she did 'lead them on' etc.

Its just so depressing.

complexnumber · 23/08/2012 16:49

Some interesting comparisons between the definition of rape in different countries here
www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19333439

I say 'interesting', I apologise to anyone who may think I am trivialising the brutality of the act.

HoratiaWinwood · 23/08/2012 16:53

I agree with (very eloquent) OP. Just because there is a penis and a vagina, that don't make it sex.

TroublesomeEx · 23/08/2012 16:53

spuddy yes, my mother is a bit like that. She talks in terms of women "deserving" and "asking for" it. I learned growing up that if I were raped it would be my fault. And I've had similar experiences to you.

In fact, by Cailin's definition, I have been. I have definitely said "no" and it has definitely been ignored and I have definitely just let it go ahead without a fuss when I didn't want it to and when it has been quite clear that I were not a willing participant.

I did tell my mother about it afterwards and she said that all women will at some point have sex with a man even when they don't want to do it because it's not worth the hassle of saying no. I genuinely believed it was just the way it is when I was younger.

My children will become adults who think very differently!

ChunkyPickle · 23/08/2012 16:54

complex - I find that scary - that so many countries seem to require some kind of additional violence almost as if the rape itself isn't the crime.

Spuddybean · 23/08/2012 17:01

folkgirl Sadly i think a lot of people from my mums generation think like that. If you think about it rape in marriage is till only recently recognised. My mum talks of it just being easier to lay there than the argument of saying no (not sure why it should be an argument, it's a pretty quick conversation, no. no discussion etc).

I have had times when i have woken up to men doing things to my body and i've just pretended to be asleep hoping they would get the hint and stop but they haven't. When i have mentioned this to friends they thought i was in the wrong or it was funny. If i had have told mum she would probably laugh and call me ridiculous. I know my friends did when i showed them the swelling and cuts. They were (still are) good friends with the guy and it would have meant having to admit something horrible. Easier to laugh and say it was 'poor seduction'.

The other thing is i know loads (basically every male i know other than DP) of blokes who really like to be woken up by oral or penis stroking. So they can't see a problem.

TheQueenOfDiamonds · 23/08/2012 17:05

I agree.

I am absolutely fed up with the rape apologists around tbh. There is never an excuse, and it is never anything but rape, no "but what if" or "maybe he" or "he only..". Rape is rape and is not even comparible with consensual sex!

Spuddybean · 23/08/2012 17:07

A friend said no and her husband just carried on, when she said afterwards you just raped me, he laughed and said 'how can your rape your wife' like how can you damage your own property, it's yours to do with as you wish.

I think there needs to be universal education on what rape is. Not a discussion. Not ooh should this be it? should that be it? Just full page ads in the papers and on telly saying 'THIS IS RAPE, we aren't asking for you to agree, it doesn't matter if you disagree, it is not a discussion point, you just have to understand THIS IS RAPE'

Because for some reason people seem to think their opinion on this matters and you can agree to disagree.

TheQueenOfDiamonds · 23/08/2012 17:10

I also only recently realised how common it is to wake up being raped, or that so many people think you have to physically say no.

I was at a friends house and a man did this to me. Just got in bed and got on with it. I never said yes. I froze. I thought if I argued he might hurt me and I only knew one of the people there. I was scared the two I didn't know might hurt me or my friend and we were both pregnant. I just froze and never said a word.

She thought I'd done it willingly though and told DDs dad. So when he asked I said I had had sex with him. I told him the truth since. I told his brother first. His brother believes me but DDs dad doesn't. I wish I could tell him how sorry I am for hurting his feelings.

imogengladhart · 23/08/2012 17:13

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Birdsgottafly · 23/08/2012 17:18

There are no 'grey areas' when it comes to the victims POV.

What the perpetrator tells themselves is a different matter. It is what society and the law starts to recognise that is the most important.

i think a lot of people from my mums generation think like that.

They do have skewed thinking from a lack of education in a lot of matters of discrimination and abuse.

Society ws set up to suit an agenda from the most powerful in it and people were taught 'how the way things are' and not allowed to question that.

Society has moved on and these views need to be challenged and hopefully eventually removed.

We can only concern ourselves with the UK,to start with (or whatever country you happen to be in).

TheQueenOfDiamonds · 23/08/2012 17:26

I agree about education, if anyone would be interested in setting something up to raise awareness, PM me as I would be interested in something like that

CailinDana · 23/08/2012 17:57

In terms of education, I'd like to see a complete move away from the focus on what rape is/isn't and a new focus on what sex is and isn't. Rape takes many many forms and far too often different details are focused on as a way of blaming the victim or exonerating the rapist.

Basically sex is an act that both partners enjoy and want to happen. If either partner doesn't enjoy it or doesn't want it to happen and the other partner doesn't stop, regardless of anything that came before, anything said or done, then it is rape.

A person who is drugged, asleep, or extremely drunk can't want or enjoy anything in a meaningful way.

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