To think rape should not be considered a form of sex

[CailinDana]

In my mind, sex is a caring act completed between two people who are comfortable with each other. It involves an understanding about what each other likes and dislikes, and a constant awareness of each other, so that if one partner starts to feel uncomfortable the other picks up on that and checks what the matter is, and stops if needs be.

The impression given by media discussions about rape is that sex is something a woman either agrees to or doesn't agree to. The issue of consent is contentious because it is not the experience of most people who have had normal sexual contact that there is agreement or disagreement, it is just a constant process where through body language, eye contact, verbalisations (not necessarily words), physical response and laughter you and your partner send each other signals that everything is ok or not ok. A person who genuinely wants to engage in sex will want to do so only if their partner is responding positively, as for a non-rapist that is the main reward and turn-on in sex. Without that response, most normal people would feel deflated (literally or figuratively!) and not be able to continue. It's not a matter of "yes" or "no," it's a matter of ongoing mutual respect where each partner is highly aware of the others' state of mind at all times. In a caring situation such as this, the likelihood that you will go ahead and do something that your partner really doesn't want or like is very low - you will see straight away that they are not happy and you will stop.

Rape is not sex. It is not a caring act. Just as stealing is not a form of borrowing, rape is not a form of sex. It is a denial of the other person's right to have control over their own body, and any level of that denial - whether it be holding the person down, or not stopping half way through sex because they were enthusiastic to begin with - turns the act from sex into rape. Once the sense of awareness of the partner is gone, sex ceases to happen.

hopkinette that's a valid point but I can see the ops point because I do think that calling rape a type of sex can cloud it in some peoples minds and almost lessens it.

'he had sex with her when she was asleep'

'he raped her when she was asleep'

anditwasallyellow those 2 statements mean the same thing.

They might to some people but to others the word 'sex' makes it seem not so bad or so awful, it gives room to make excuses. I 'think' that is the point the op is trying to make.

I understand what you're saying hopkinette. I'm sorry if it feels like I'm minimising rape, that's not my intention.

My point is that rape and sex are like stealing and borrowing. Saying "I borrowed 50 quid" isn't true if you actually stole it. With borrowing, the person gives you the object willingly, and with good faith. With stealing, the person gets the same object but they take it forcibly, wronging a person and committing a crime in the process. Essentially the two things are the same - one person gets and object from another - but the intention and the effects are different, and that's the essential thing.

That's why I was saying we should distinguish completely between sex and rape. Rape isn't just "sex gone wrong." Yes it is the same process as sex, but sex is a fun, enjoyable activity, while rape, as you rightly say is violent and shaming. I don't mean to minimise rape, in fact I mean to try to do the opposite.

then it even more shocking that even them who are 'trained' don't know what they are doing

I honestly don't see how attempting to deny the objective reality of the experience is going to change anything. Rape is forced sexual activity. That's the entire point of it. That's why it so often induces such acute feelings of shame and that's why so many people find it hard to talk about.

I probably need to step away from discussions about this. I'm on the waiting list for CBT for PTSD and not dealing with it particularly well at the moment.

Hopkinette, I am sorry for your awful experience. I dont think any posts here are meant to reduce or deny the terrible impact of rape and I really hope your counselling helps you.

Rape is forced sexual activity. That's the entire point of it.

I think it's got to a point though, where people are discounting the 'forced' part. Too often cases of rape are referred to in the same way you would refer to a couple having consensual sex - Which automatically puts the woman as party to it.

I'm sorry for what you've been through, No one wants to minimize that at all.

Ok, I've popped back by, I think my main issue is just with the description of what sex is, ie based on giving pleasure and a continual positive response between the partners.

It doesn't really encompass casual encounters or lacklustre relationships that may or may not be mutually satisfying.

And just out of curiosity how does sex for money fit in, since few clients would actually believe they are giving pleasure?

hopkinette it is a very difficult subject for me also and how an individual feels is personal to themselves. I hope the cbt helps. I think for me discussions like this actually help me because it helps me to know that there are people out there who know and understand when I often feel surrounded by people making pig ignorant comments about something that they clearly don't understand.

Also for me I think the taking the word 'sex' out of it helps my to put things in a box in my own mind as for me to this day what happened is still cloudy because it was my partner who did that to me so it helps me to seperate that that as an assault rather than a sex act. I definitely don't thinkt he op intended to undermine such an awful experience.

I've never been exposed to physical violence outside the context of rape so I can't make a direct comparison, but I just don't think that if someone had simply tried to suffocate me (or make me believe he was going to suffocate me) I would have felt such overwhelming shame that I was unable to tell anyone for over 2 years.

Still. My views on this whole topic are very defeatist and, on bad days, along the lines of hunter/prey. I don't think rape is ever going to stop and I think people are always going to get away with it.

Physical violence not in the context of rape (for me) was definitely easier to admit to and talk about, I only ended up reporting the rape when I was reporting a different assault and it was easier for me to accept that I'd been hit than been raped. I wonder if that also says a lot about how rape is viewed our culture. I actually find it impossible to say the word in rl.

It's really good that you're going to speak go someone now though I never did and I mean that in a compeltely non patronising way.

I was manipulated into sex as a teenager. A guy in his twenties took me to a hotel far away from home and said he wouldn't take me home unless I had sex with him. I made it very clear I really didn't want to but finally gave in after he kept going on at me. He didn't physically force me but for ages I struggled with whether I had been raped or not. By your definition is guess I was? I felt disgusted with myself for a long time and wished I had been braver and said no. Worse thing was he kept calling me for ages afterwards and woukdn't leave me alone and each time I felt sick. I think he wanted to try and stop me saying anything. Christ I've never told anyone that!

Yes Tempernillo you were raped. You were coerced, that is not free consent. I am sorry that happened to you.

Thanks for responding. It kind of helps to hear that. I spent the latter part of my teens thinking I was just a slapper and feeling totally ashamed of myself.

temper 'slapper' 'slag 'slut' all horrible words used to put down the female population and at times used to excuse rape. You were a child/young person who was manipulated by an adult who knew better.

I'm so sorry you went through that, Tempernillo. I think cases like yours are part of what encouraged Cailin to write her original post - the vast gulf between cheerful consensual sex and what you endured cannot be emphasised too often.

I would never say/think those words about anyone else but it's how I felt about myself at the time (but not how I feel about myself now). I felt stupid because I was somewhere I shouldn't be, with someone I shouldn't be with and my parents didn't know where I was etc. which is why I kept it to myself and felt i couldn't tell anyone. It was in the days of landlines and I remember him calling the house and I would tell mum I didn't want to speak to him. She thought I was being a fickle teenager and would say "oh but he sounds like such a nice boy!" I would be physically sick sometimes after these calls. Eventually he gave up.

Anyway sorry to derail the thread! In case you hadn't guessed I totally agree with the op.

Chandellina, due to further discussion I recognised that the "enjoyment" element of my OP is conditional, but what should absolutely not be conditional is the element of wanting it to happen.

In a casual encounter you should want the sex to happen and you should be able to stop at any time if something unwanted is happening.
Sex for money is the same - you should want the sex to happen (to gain money) and if something not agreed or unwanted happens then it is rape.

Would you argue there is a grey area there?

Tempernillo what happened to you was most definitely rape. Don't worry about derailing the thread, I'm glad that people feel they can talk about what happened to them here. That can only be a good thing.

I does feel quite cathrtic to finally say it, if not out loud! Have considered starting a thread about it before but was worried I might get flamed. Thank you for letting me get it off my chest.

Why did you think you'd get flamed?

As an aside, I do sometimes worry about how many teenage girls get goaded into sex by their "boyfriends" when they are too young and lack the confidence to say no, and how damaging this can be. I think it may be a growing problem, and I believe I have read that dv is also increasing in teenage relationships. It may be a sweeping generalisation, but it seems that young menare increasingly disrespecting women and viewing them as sexual commodities.