To think rape should not be considered a form of sex

[CailinDana]

In my mind, sex is a caring act completed between two people who are comfortable with each other. It involves an understanding about what each other likes and dislikes, and a constant awareness of each other, so that if one partner starts to feel uncomfortable the other picks up on that and checks what the matter is, and stops if needs be.

The impression given by media discussions about rape is that sex is something a woman either agrees to or doesn't agree to. The issue of consent is contentious because it is not the experience of most people who have had normal sexual contact that there is agreement or disagreement, it is just a constant process where through body language, eye contact, verbalisations (not necessarily words), physical response and laughter you and your partner send each other signals that everything is ok or not ok. A person who genuinely wants to engage in sex will want to do so only if their partner is responding positively, as for a non-rapist that is the main reward and turn-on in sex. Without that response, most normal people would feel deflated (literally or figuratively!) and not be able to continue. It's not a matter of "yes" or "no," it's a matter of ongoing mutual respect where each partner is highly aware of the others' state of mind at all times. In a caring situation such as this, the likelihood that you will go ahead and do something that your partner really doesn't want or like is very low - you will see straight away that they are not happy and you will stop.

Rape is not sex. It is not a caring act. Just as stealing is not a form of borrowing, rape is not a form of sex. It is a denial of the other person's right to have control over their own body, and any level of that denial - whether it be holding the person down, or not stopping half way through sex because they were enthusiastic to begin with - turns the act from sex into rape. Once the sense of awareness of the partner is gone, sex ceases to happen.

There is no grey area Horatia - if the woman isn't really in the mood for sex but is happy to do it without any resentment or feeling of coercion then there's no problem. If she is giving in to sex because she knows she will have trouble if she doesn't then that's rape as her choice and her decision has been taken away. It seems pretty clear cut to me.

i think if we were to get rid of this myth that men need sex

True, no one has died from a lack of sex. Also we need to get rid off the idea having sex is a right!

I agree FS. The 'she was dressed in revealing clothes so what did she expect' line is the one that pisses me off the most. Men are capable of making sound, logical decisions. They do not lose this ability just because they see a woman in revealing clothes. If they did, Then surely, they would lose all sense of control upon sight and immediately rape regardless of where they are and who is watching? I have never heard of a woman being raped in the middle of town in full view of everyone, yet i see plenty of women dressed extremely skimpily...

if the woman isn't really in the mood for sex but is happy to do it without any resentment or feeling of coercion then there's no problem. If she is giving in to sex because she knows she will have trouble if she doesn't then that's rape as her choice and her decision has been taken away.

Ah now this I can get on board with.

The whole thing is rather like racism (etc) laws though, where it is how something is received, rather than how it is intended, that defines whether it is illegal or not. Which is absolutely reasonable, but terribly hard to legislate/convict for.

Spuddy, I guess I am saying that even if you both would have consented sober, there comes a point of drubkebess at which consent is not a possible concept. Hence the blood alcohol level comment.

I'm exploring the idea more than anything else at this stage.

Stewie

I agree with your last post. I also think though, that women need to understand and really feel this too. I am sure the "lie back and think of England attitude is still engrained in us from generations of women past.

... and be able to assert themselves

Jamie - I think that's a really good point. Women feeling that they have the right to say no is not always a given.

I agree the lie back and let it happen attitude is still passed on. It was very much transferred to me from my parents, who had/have what i would consider an old fashioned idea of marriage - ie mum does ALL housework AND works while dad is at home all day and does fuck all. Sex is his RIGHT etc. He also watches the most obscene amount of pornography. When i grew up there were playboys laying around and dad made very obvious vocal displays of when he liked or didn't like a female always remarks on looks. I was brought up very much as his inferior. This was perpetuated by my mum and my female relatives.

I think my mum had cultivated this as a method of self preservation and i genuinely believe she was trying to protect me. As it's better to let them get it over with than be beaten too.

Therefore i thought if i got drunk/went too far with a man i had to 'go all the way'. That was teens and 20's.

Then when my exH started having erection problems i felt it was my fault. We went to sex therapy at Relate where i was encouraged to dress and act like a porn star and basically force myself to have sex whether i wanted to or not. Both my husband and i were horrified that this was the advice. When we said no that's not what we wanted they said they couldn't help us then.

I do feel society is geared towards this indoctrination. Even when the motives are 'good' the message is bad.

spuddy would you believe that my rape counsellor told my husband he shouldn't take no for an answer...?!

WE BELIVE YOU

MYTHS

RAPE IS RAPE. there is no grey areas. NO means NO. If someone is too drunk to consent then the answer is no. I can walk around in hot pants and a boob tube it doesn't mean i want sex so come and rape me.

Back to OP no it should not be called sex, it is a sexual assalt

Sadly horatio i would. The therapist said 'well if he can only get an erection when you are dressed in saucy undies and bent forward over the sink panting looking in the mirror, then why don't you just do that?' Erm because i want to feel like more than a blow up doll.

We were told that even if i wasn't in the mood we should do it and i would get in the mood. I was also told even if i didn't want to if i was tired i should offer a blow job. It was all very soul destroying. I do feel sorry for both men and women as this, in the guise of help, gives the completely wrong messages.

Sneaky squidgey hugs for Spuddy.

It does make me despair though. If the experts are peddling these myths, what hope for the rest of society?

But anditwasyellow what if you consent when drunk and the man is also so drunk he doesn't really know what he's doing? Just a question as i don't know how i feel about that and i have been in that situation.

Soery only just come back to reply. I certainly am not saying that because one party is drunk it is rape. I'm just pointing out really that people blame a woman for getting too drunk but how about blaming a man for either a) having sex with someone who is heavily intoxicated if he is sober or b) getting so drunk himself that he ends up putting himself in a vulnerable position. Basically pissed up one night stands are probably not the greatest thing to indulge in but blame often solely lies with the woman.

I agree it is horrible when a woman is very drunk and a man is sober and swooping in. DP and i were in a pub last year and a really drunk young woman staggered into the pub slipped over at my feet then after i'd helped her up and taken her to the toilet, she vomitted everywhere. She was with a less drunk friend too. When i went back to my seat there were a group of middle aged men looking thru the window, then they came in and asked if she was in the loo. They didn't order a drink. Were all quite sober. And they had seen how drunk she was and followed her in from the street. DP told them to leave and i went and had a word with her friend and made her aware there were these predators lurking. It was so horrible. We made sure they got a taxi home and ensured them didn't follow them.

If anything had happened the blame would have been on her for getting so drunk i am sure.

Has anyone seen the documentary about 10 yrs ago about the rape of a stripper at a frat party? It was basically all on film as it was a guys birthday. Both sides felt the film proved their side. It really is horrowing watching - but very interesting.

consent? this is it i think.

spuddy and horatio that has shocked me and I'm really sorry that happened/was said.

One of the things that got me when I was making a statement about being raped. I basically explained how my ex had always been really pushy with sex and had sometimes persuaded me to change my mind. They interpretted this that the time when I shouted no over and over again with my hands over my face perhaps he thought I would change my mind like all the other times. This was the police.

I really don't think rape should be a normal police issue.

once someone has been raped it should be handed to a special trained person.

Great thread, Caillin.

Feminism and changing attitudes about women are part of the story here, isn't it. Those who believe that sex is something men do to women are more likely to believe in grey areas because for them sex involves a woman lying there and taking it, so for them a woman lying there passively and gritting her teeth wouldn't ring alarm bells. Hence the George Galloway point of view.

Whereas those of us who believe that women's pleasure is just as important as men's see enthusiastic consent on the part of the woman as central, and think that any lack of enthusiastic consent suggests the man should stop immediately and check how the women is feeling about the whole thing.

It's a very sad thing, but I think the main thing even in this day and age is to teach women that they are 100% entitled at all times to decide what happens with their bodies, and that no one, not for any reason, has the right to do anything to them that they don't want. Unfortunately a lot of women genuinely don't realise that - as evidenced by the recurring posts from women describing a very clear rape situation (no mythical "grey area") and despite feeling violated, upset and frightened they still have to ask if what was done to them was wrong.

One further thought. Rape has always been seen as a serious crime, but why, given that women have been so undervalued - why did the patriarchy even care if women were raped? The answer, I think, is that rape was seen as a way of sullying a man's property - either the destruction of the virginity of a man's daughter, or the stealing of the sexual favours of a wife. Rape was never about what the woman wanted, it was all about how it reflected on their male owners. Embedded within that is the idea that women enjoying or even wanting sex is neither here nor there - at best it's irrelevant, at worst it's disgusting and wrong for a woman to actually want sex. So the idea that rape isn't about whether the man had the "right" to take sex but actually about whether the woman wanted to have sex barely exists in our society. "True" rape victims (as seen by the patriarchy) are ones who "qualify" to be a man's possession, either by being pure and virginal and therefore prime marriage material, or by being a completely faithful wife who doesn't know her rapist (and therefore couldn't have provoked the rape). That's where all these ridiculous questions about what the woman was wearing and where she was going come from - the patriarchy needs to decide whether the woman is a legitimate possession before she could be stolen. If she was sullied in some way - by having a lot of partners, by wearing or doing provocative things, by drinking - then no crime has happened because no man would mind a woman like that being "stolen" from him.

Time to let go of this fucked up thinking and recognise that women are actually people who have the right to have sex when, where and how they want to without shame. They also have the right to not want sex at any time, no matter what they did before or who they're with/married to/related to. Because they are people. And if anyone denies them that right, in whatever way, they are a criminal. They are a rapist.

It is or was in my case mchappy it still doesn't automatically mean that things are handled correctly.

I agree with mooncup I mean think of some of the old things that are banded about. It is socially accepted that women 'fake it' why anyone would do this is beyond me. Then how about the old 'getting a woman drunk to take advantage' this is still an acceptable thing to say even in a jokey way. Sex shops etc a lot of it is about women dressing up like lapdancers and porn stars, women thinking they have to pleasure their fella when they are on their time of the month. The phrase 'lie back and think of England'. All of these things are though of as quite funny and are socially acceptable.

Yy mooncup and caitlin.

I have been raped and I find this: " rape is not a form of sex" utterly fucking bizarre and actually quite insulting and minimising. Someone definitely had sex with me against my will. I recognise that you've elected to redefine "sex" for the purposes of your argument and personally I don't think it works. The person who raped me specifically chose sexual intercourse as his method precisely because of the nature of sexual intercourse: it's intimate. Forced sex is shaming in a unique way. It's different from other forms of violence in that respect and that's what makes it what it is.