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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think rape should not be considered a form of sex

130 replies

CailinDana · 23/08/2012 16:10

In my mind, sex is a caring act completed between two people who are comfortable with each other. It involves an understanding about what each other likes and dislikes, and a constant awareness of each other, so that if one partner starts to feel uncomfortable the other picks up on that and checks what the matter is, and stops if needs be.

The impression given by media discussions about rape is that sex is something a woman either agrees to or doesn't agree to. The issue of consent is contentious because it is not the experience of most people who have had normal sexual contact that there is agreement or disagreement, it is just a constant process where through body language, eye contact, verbalisations (not necessarily words), physical response and laughter you and your partner send each other signals that everything is ok or not ok. A person who genuinely wants to engage in sex will want to do so only if their partner is responding positively, as for a non-rapist that is the main reward and turn-on in sex. Without that response, most normal people would feel deflated (literally or figuratively!) and not be able to continue. It's not a matter of "yes" or "no," it's a matter of ongoing mutual respect where each partner is highly aware of the others' state of mind at all times. In a caring situation such as this, the likelihood that you will go ahead and do something that your partner really doesn't want or like is very low - you will see straight away that they are not happy and you will stop.

Rape is not sex. It is not a caring act. Just as stealing is not a form of borrowing, rape is not a form of sex. It is a denial of the other person's right to have control over their own body, and any level of that denial - whether it be holding the person down, or not stopping half way through sex because they were enthusiastic to begin with - turns the act from sex into rape. Once the sense of awareness of the partner is gone, sex ceases to happen.

OP posts:
CailinDana · 23/08/2012 18:02

To add, it is the responsibility of both partners to ensure that the other partner is enjoying sex and wanting it to happen at all points in the act.

OP posts:
CailinDana · 23/08/2012 18:04

"I didn't realise you didn't want it" is just not good enough. Ignorance is not a defence. If you are ignorant of your partner's wishes, not only are you a selfish cunt you are also opening yourself up to the possibility of a prosecution for rape.

OP posts:
Spuddybean · 23/08/2012 18:06

I think the problem is it is not just educating people. You can tell the people i know/explain to them this till you are blue in the face but they just wont accept it. The reason is it would mean they or their partner would have to admit to being a rapist. I know it would mean my dad is and most of my male friends.

Like drink driving and saying 'coloured' i think you would need a kind of amnesty. Where you say, yes you did it then and it was tolerated (not saying it is okay at all) but now times have changed and it's not. Like smoking during pregnancy etc. I am not trying to trivialise rape but i am trying to think of mass changes in opinion which have happened over the last 30 years.

I don't think you will win hearts and minds by making everyone defensive. I think if you want to change opinions you have to do it with forgiveness and acceptance iyswim. The trouble is you then feel like a rape apologist. So it is very tough. You have to ask yourself, do you want to change things or be right? Sometimes you have to make uncomfortable sacrifices.

I hope this makes sense, sorry if it's rambling. And i am not saying rape is okay.

TroublesomeEx · 23/08/2012 18:06

Cailin I'm sitting here, reading your posts and just thinking "yes, that's it!".

  • I'd like to see a complete move away from the focus on what rape is/isn't and a new focus on what sex is and isn't.
  • Rape takes many many forms and far too often different details are focused on as a way of blaming the victim or exonerating the rapist.
  • The impression given by media discussions about rape is that sex is something a woman either agrees to or doesn't agree to.
  • How can you have sex with someone who isn't actually participating?
Spuddybean · 23/08/2012 18:11

It is not enough for someone to say no, they have to say yes yes yes. At every stage too.

I remember when i was first with DP it was a revelation, he consistently asked if every next step was consented to. Not in a rigid weird way. But is this okay/nice/good? Do you want me to x,y & z. It was incredibly sexy and made me feel i could stop at any moment.

CailinDana · 23/08/2012 18:11

I totally get what you mean Spuddy and I think you're totally right.

OP posts:
chandellina · 23/08/2012 18:12

Sorry but I think you are totally idealising what sex should be. Sometimes either or both parties are acting solely for their own pleasure and that on its own doesn't amount to rape. I also think motives or intentions do vary in unwanted sexual encounters, meaning rape isn't always solely driven by violent aggression.

CailinDana · 23/08/2012 18:13

Could you explain what you mean a bit more chandellina?

OP posts:
Spuddybean · 23/08/2012 18:15

I have had loads of one night stands purely for my own pleasure, with people who i didn't even know their name. However, it was always consensual and their participation was as enthusiastic as mine - mutual satisfaction with each others bodies. Not using that body as a wank device.

missymoomoomee · 23/08/2012 18:16

About 10 years ago a girl I know was at a party, dressed in jeans and a t-shirt (not that that should have had anything to do with it) she woke up to some guy on top of her. She pressed charges and the guy got let off with it because she didn't say no and she was wearing 'sexy' underwear (although the guy wouldn't have known that had he not raped her) and that she was drunk (even more reason in her defence I would have said). There does need to be absolute clear outlines so there is none of this 'grey area' in law and I think a good step would be to seperate the term 'sex' from the term 'rape'. Thanks for the post OP tbh its not something I had ever considered before.

TroublesomeEx · 23/08/2012 18:17

Same here spuddy.

GhouliaYelps · 23/08/2012 18:20

I totally agree. Was discussing this with DH the other night, the thought of him not stopping if I asked him to "mid sex" is just an unbelievable concept. There are NO grey areas. I think frighteningly, the grey areas are created to let men off raping people Sad

HoratiaWinwood · 23/08/2012 18:21

Basically sex is an act that both partners enjoy and want to happen.

I think this is too nuanced. Sex is an act that both partners want to happen is unequivocally true. I'm ok with not enjoying sex good job too and am categorically not being raped while we are ttc!

However, if we are (rightly) redefining rape as any penetrative sex act without mutual consent, then what we are also actually struggling with is the My Rapist Doesn't Know He's A Rapist problem.

I don't like explicitly saying yes to sex. I find it unromantic and unsexy. But DH and I are absolutely clear whether I have consented or not.

I don't know which side of the rape line "saying yes for a quiet life" falls. Anyone any thoughts for me?

frankie4 · 23/08/2012 18:24

I suppose the grey area can occur if a girl is very drunk. In my student days i had a one night stand and was so drunk I hardly knew what I was doing. However, I was coherent enough that I had consented.

However, if I had been so drunk that I really had no knowledge of what I was doing then that would have been rape. But some men, especially if drunk themselves, would have found it difficult to tell.

SkiBumMum · 23/08/2012 18:24

Anyone read tonight's Evening Standard? Am on the train so can't link. Bloody hell - the "Comment" section by Melanie McDonagh on page 15 about Louise Mensch....

"It does feel dodgy when male politicians sound off about rape but it doesn't mean they're wrong. Clarke didn't say rape wasn't serious; he said some were more so than others. As for Galloway, that bit about Jullian Assange's bad sexual etiquette wasn't a happy turn of phrase but his argument about explicit consent during a sexual encounter is, I'd say, reasonable. And no, Louise talking tough on rape doesn't make you less of a drip for giving up the day job."

Spuddybean · 23/08/2012 18:29

I agree frankie i have had sex with someone when so drunk neither of us remember it. It is very difficult to judge that.

anditwasallyellow · 23/08/2012 18:33

*A friend said no and her husband just carried on, when she said afterwards you just raped me, he laughed and said 'how can your rape your wife' like how can you damage your own property, it's yours to do with as you wish.

I think there needs to be universal education on what rape is. Not a discussion. Not ooh should this be it? should that be it? Just full page ads in the papers and on telly saying 'THIS IS RAPE, we aren't asking for you to agree, it doesn't matter if you disagree, it is not a discussion point, you just have to understand THIS IS RAPE'

Because for some reason people seem to think their opinion on this matters and you can agree to disagree.*

That is one of the best comments I have ever read. I also wish someone would have the guts to make ads on tv and radio telling people how it is, no arguements because I totally agree, too many complete fucking idiots think that it is down to opinion and open to discussion.

I was raped by my ex 'partner' in fact I was probably assaulted more than once, because I didn't report the rape immediately but at a later time after he'd hit me I don't believe it was taken seriously at all, I understand there there was no evidence but even if I had reported it there would have been little evidence, I mean I'd consented to sex with him many times before, I wasn't covered in bruises so it would have been his word against his. Despite all that and despite people being supportive to me at the time I still have to listen to people saying things like 'it's not as bad for a woman if it's her partner who rapes her, I mean that's not as bad as been dragged behind a bush'.

chandellina · 23/08/2012 18:35

Cailin, I guess I do think there are grey areas, unfortunately. Alcohol alone dulls feelings and decision making abilities.

anditwasallyellow · 23/08/2012 18:37

The other pet hate of mine is the way women are blamed if they are drunk as they 'put themselves in a vulnerable position'.

Well isn't a man putting himself in a vulnerable position by having 'sex' with a female who is heavily intoxicated, isn't her putting himself in the position of assaulting her because she isn't capable of consenting or enjoying the experience? Same with one night stands, a women is blamed if she goes back to a guys house for not taking personal responsibility, but where is his personal responsibility? Oh ye men don't have to do they.

anditwasallyellow · 23/08/2012 18:38

However, if I had been so drunk that I really had no knowledge of what I was doing then that would have been rape. But some men, especially if drunk themselves, would have found it difficult to tell

For fucks sake frankie really? If he finds it difficult to tell if she wants it perhaps he shouild control his urges and keep it in his pants until he is sure?

JamieandTheOlympicTorch · 23/08/2012 18:40

I totally agree Cailin. My views on this have been informed since I've been on MN, and I thank you and others who have shared your stories over the years.

missymoomoomee · 23/08/2012 18:42

Anditwas myself and 2 male family members were abused by another family member, my mother found out years later and although she was wholeheartedly there for the males she said to me 'its not so bad for a girl, you don't have the whole gay thing to cope with'. Some peoples attitudes are just vile. I'm sorry you had to suffer like that then have those heartless idiots saying that to you.

DowagersHump · 23/08/2012 18:42

I think it's a really good idea Cailin. And the education needs to start when kids do sex education.

I also (sadly) agree with you spuddy. I think there are thousands of men who have raped and don't consider themselves to be rapists. I'm fairly sure neither of my rapists think of themselves that way

Spuddybean · 23/08/2012 18:45

But anditwasyellow what if you consent when drunk and the man is also so drunk he doesn't really know what he's doing? Just a question as i don't know how i feel about that and i have been in that situation.

TheDoctrineOfEnnis · 23/08/2012 18:49

Cailin, you are fabulous.

Thanks