to think this is over-sexualising a 7-year old?

[bigbadal]

Really interested to hear people's opinions on this one....

A family member recently told me that his 7-year old daughter is 'already trying it on' with him as when he goes to kiss her goodnight she tries to kiss him on the lips rather than on the cheek. These are 'peck' kisses not anything more adult. He feels that this is her acting in a sexual fashion. Since her mother kisses both her and her younger brother goodnight on the lips I suspect it is just that she's noticed that her parents treat her differently and that she's a bit confused by this or that she is trying to show her parents equal affection.

I'm really not sure what to think. I'm fairly confident that I was kissing my father goodnight on the lips until I left home......and it certainly never EVER crossed my mind that there was anything sexual about it....that's just how it was - I kissed my parents on the lips. I know a lot of parents choose not to kiss their children on the lips for whatever reason (hygiene etc) but for this father to think his daughter is acting in a sexual way with him seems to be a bit far-fetched?

As a mother of a boy (who I kiss on the lips) I am confused. Is this a symptom of over-sexualisation of children within our society - or am I being very naive?

....sits back and waits to be flamed for admitting to kissing son on the lips and being at risk of awakening his sexuality at too young an age!

I most definitely don't view all men negatively. Not at all. But the thing he said has rung alarm bells for me.

I am also aware though that some people (particularly relations of mine it would seem ) say inappropriate things without it being sinister.

Like you say keep an eye on it, although if there were sexual abuse happening or about to (think i read that the most common age for it to happen is between 8 or 9 and 12) then you wouldn't necessarily be able to spot it anyway. If often goes on right under the rest of the families noses without them noticing.

OP you seemed to think something was weird and sexualizing about this, and when others here think so too, you say...

the mumsnet community is that of one determined to view men as generally evil, child-abusing, wife-beating monsters

What. You're overreacting. Why did you even ask here if you think we believe all men are evil monsters?

Op if you thought what he said as normal, why did you post?

Pretzel, I didn't say weird. I asked about sexualisation - but in terms of our society, not the individual situation. I was intrigued as to whether or not lip-kissing of children was as acceptable as I thought it was to the majority. The fact that it isn't acceptable to this father because he views it as sexual in some way is not dissimilar to fathers being uncomfortable bathing their daughters due to contact with genitals (which at the ages we're talking about are certainly not viewed by the children as sexual organs yet) or accusations of inappropriate behaviour, I don't agree with his logic but it is his choice. I wanted to know if his concerns were mainstream or not.

As I've tried to clarify in later posts, my personal concerns, if any, lie primarily with the attitudes towards sex being past on to the children (having been brought up myself in a very liberal and open family).

In answer to your second question, pretzel, quickest and easiest way of getting a straw poll vote on a question relating to young children - ie 'is it acceptable these days to lip-kiss children or does it ring alarm bells?'. There is no requirement for me to respect the opinions surrounding the question when what I'm interested in is yes/no.

In terms of society and the fact that a father may feel uncomfortable lip-kissing their daughter I have had few answers.....although I am starting to feel that this father is justified in his concerns given the response of some of the posters. So, yes, the fathers actions do seem to be a response to society - although maybe a slightly extreme one.

However, I do now know that lip-kissing one's children is still OK- so my straw poll worked.

Talk about a one-eighty !.

Op I don't actually think mn as a collective thinks that all men are evil ,child abusing monsters . Bit odd for you to say that.

I don't agree at all that the fathers reaction was a response to society!

They are two different things. So say he felt uncomfortable about his daughter kissing him the normal reaction isn't to say that she is already making sexual advances towards him!

He could have ignored 'society' or suggested to her that she kiss him on the cheek if it bothered him that much.

Why did you even bother OP

Its the wording the man used that is disturbing whether he said it in front of people is irrelevent-what he said is not 'normal'.
Op you are backtracking away from your post and insulting our opinions. If you think we are all so bad, why post?

Sometimes you hear things on here you would rather not be told but you need to hear it-this man does not sound like a loving dad, by the way he speaks about his 7yo daughter

Op. Do you think it is normal or acceptable for him to say that his child is already trying it on with me?

Already implies that he expected it at some point and the whole thing implies that he thinks its normal for a child to come on to her dad. Never mind his completely wrong assessment in the first place and beliefs that a child that young would be capable and responsible for that.

Who is this relation?

Whether or not he feels comfortable with lip-kissing is a seperate issue to his comment about his 7yo 'trying it on' with him.

This thread shows there are plenty of people who feel kissing on the lips is only for sexual partners, and nobody is accusing all them all of having sinister intentions towards children.

He could have been talking about anything, the kissing is actually neither here nor there - what is undeniable is that he has CHOSEN to interperate a totally innocent act of affection from his child as evidence that she is trying to seduce him in some way.

I find your responses strange actually, they dont match up with your op. Maybe you heard things you feel uncomfortable with? Maybe your whole intention was to provoke a reaction you could then label as 'man-hating'? Either way, the majority reaction to this thread has been spot on.

I'm wondering if maybe the man is a closer relative than she's admitting......

That's what i was thinking.

So OP, you were wondering in your OP if this is fishy behaviour of the man "AIBU to think this is over sexualisation of a7 year old" and now you have changed your mind and are asking about something different entirely?

Are you the man or maybe actually the child's mum and are now backtracking. I note you said something rather odd earlier but gave you the benefit of the doubt, something along the lines of the daughter possibly knowingly behaving in a provocative manner. Hmm, anyway with respect, you do seem to be bactracking somehow. What was the purpose of your post really??

"I know that I can't be certain that nothing is going on, however, of my two concerns, I am more concerned about the young girl's developing attitude towards sex, rather than that there is any likelihood of physical abuse. At present the girl seems to have a good relationship with her father and continues to enjoy 'rough and tumble' games etc with him. I will keep an eye out for any changes in behaviour and thank you all for your concern"

What did you mean re the child's developing attitude to sex?! Why would a 7 year old be aware of sex? Just thought that comment was a bit odd but then I'm probably splitting hairs.

And your whole comment OP implies you are actually concerned about this man's comments, rather than having a random musing about society in general.

I noticed that too.

I don't know why I am now bothering to reply but here goes:

'AIBU to think this is over-sexualisation of a 7-year old?' was not finished with 'by the man' and my only actual 'questions' (you know, the ones with a question mark at the end?) were in relation to society and to whether or not the father's response was 'far-fetched' - ie unusual. A few years ago there were thongs available for this age group - it was described as over-sexualisation, but I didn't get the impression that the accusation was actually that anyone who bought them was abusing their child, more that it was mis-placed or inappropriate.

No I am not the mother.....or the father.

I would be very worried if a 7-year old did not have an awareness of sex - not to have told a child the basics by this age would in my opinion be a dereliction of parental duty and even if a child has not been told the basics by that age most of them are aware that there is something 'special' about the relationship between adult men and women - I don't mean a full-blown awareness of all aspects of sex but children from birth are learning about all things all the time and by 7 will know 'something' about the relationship between adults - even if they don't know anything about penises and vaginas etc. But a child with no awareness - I'm sorry that would REALLY worry me with regards to the parent's attitudes towards sex.

as said before, 'already' was in the context of two sets of parents talking about how quickly children (and this child in particular as the eldest of the group) grow up. The 'trying it on' is an unfortunate response to the fact that he (and his wife? I don't know) has decided that he will not lip-kiss his daughter and that she is now trying to. One assumes that they (through their own issues with sex) have decided to avoid lip-kisses for sexual reasons and that therefore his first response when faced with her trying to lip-kiss is to associate it with his (their?) reasons, not to see it from the little girls eyes.

Please, please read my actual words - did I ever say anything about having any concern about the father - NO! I was asking about society's impact on how this father was thinking and behaving and wondering if it was me that was out of synch with everyone else or him.

I am relieved to find that it is him - which leads me to my concerns about the attitudes towards sex that they are passing on to their children.

As said a few posts back (and in this epic one), the purpose was to establish if lip-kissing children was no longer the 'done thing' in a society that continually perplexes me with fathers worrying about bathing their daughters, adults reluctant to offer help to children in distress less they be accused of acting inappropriately, teenage girls accusing parents/step-parents for 'a joke'. My attitudes tend to be out-dated so wanted to get a feel. I've got that feel so mission accomplished but I am very saddened at the way that things have been viewed. Maybe I didn't phrase my original post as well as I should, but if you read the words without trying to put your own twist on it I think it stands and that I have not back-tracked at all.

I had no desire to provoke a reaction that was man-hating, however it does seem that people are quick to label a throw-away comment that prompted my question as 'not normal' and as an indication that something is wrong - 'can you in all honesty say your response would be the same if it were a woman' ....now the number of times I have read that on here....do you wonder why I have the impression that I have?

And of course I have read things that I didn't feel uncomfortable with - I didn't expect this thread to take the course it did. I expected - 'odd thing to say, we kiss our DC on the lips all the time - never occurred to me that people would choose not to but each to their own - some fathers do choose to avoid certain activities with their daughters' or 'we try to avoid lip-kissing, society has sexualised children so much that we see it as best avoided', not 'Totally wrong, he's abusing her, report to social services immediately'.

I am not ignoring the posts that talk suggesting the risk of abuse, just trying to point out that that concern was not in my head when I originally posted and that whilst I will endeavour to keep an eye I believe it to be highly unlikely.

you said in your original post He feels that this is her acting in a sexual fashion with an explanation as to what the mother does

then later on in your post

I'm really not sure what to think. I'm fairly confident that I was kissing my father goodnight on the lips until I left home......and it certainly never EVER crossed my mind that there was anything sexual about it....that's just how it was - I kissed my parents on the lips

some may choose not to kiss their children on the lips but your post to me came over as you was confused and also questioning what he said. why would anyone not think it is strange a man saying his 7 year old daughter is trying it on because who really connects what children when beign affectionate do to trying it on

and please all the man hating if you have been around long enough you will see women come on for as much if not more bashing on here then men do

OP, the awareness of sex you describe is an understanding of the 'facts of life', the mechanics, penis and vagina, etc. That is an entirely different thing from having an awareness of feeling sexual desire, trying to make someone desire you, etc., which would be abnormal and very worrying indeed in a child of 7, and it is that second sort of awareness that 'trying it on' implies, which is what has got people here naturally worried. The father's comment seems to be saying that he thinks his daughter is showing an adult-style form of sexual behaviour, which is an extremely bizarre, misguided and sinister interpretation.

That an adult doesn't innately comprehend that certain innocent behaviours in children, that can be sexual ones in adults, are totally non-sexual in the child is really disturbing, as is thinking your own child's response to you has sexual overtones. That is why the almost universal response on this thread has basically been a perturbed WTF?...

BTW, innocent affection between parents and child has got nothing to do with companies bringing out blatantly sexual clothing like thongs for children. It's an irrelevant comparison, IMO.

OP if you really did not question a father saying his SEVEN year old daughter was trying it on on him and feeling that she's acting in a sexual way and were only questioning a wider social view you are as strange and inappropriate as him.

OP You are muddying the waters slightly with too much explaining and by making strange comparisons - thongs - etc. I think you are preoccupying yourself with wider society's views etc because you don't want to face the fact that this man's belief that his daughter's behaviour was sexually motivated.

And I disagree that a 7 year old has an awareness of her sexuality in the way that you are implying - yes possibly body parts and (hopefully) about ownership of her own body from a safety point of view. I would urge you to note though, paedophiles do believe that young children are "sexual" in their behaviour, again that's how they justify abusing them.

No, I am not man hating and I don't think any of the posters who have raised concerns have came across that way either.

Incidentally, if you were not concerned about the man's comments could you not just have posted a general question instead so that a mass of genuinely concerned people wouldn't have felt the need to respond in the way they have??

This man's attitude is deeply concerning. Agree with too many of you on this thread to name.

That is incredibly creepy. He thinks his daughter is "trying it on" with him...
If kissing his dd on the lips makes him feel uncomfortable; (it shouldn't, but...)
that's one thing, but why would any man think of his daughter in those terms?
I would feel really spooked by this.
As to "Society's impact on how this father was thinking and behaving"
If he's having this reaction to his little girl, it's not because society has normalised it.

Men's concerns about society are that other people will see an innocent act such as bathing, lip kissing as something perverted and then feel uncomfortable and avoid it.

Men don't think that their child is doing those things in a sexual manner.

Huge huge difference.

If OP wants to have some sort of philosophical chitchat about what that child's father said, here's some food for thought:

A lot of people think children have sexual urges in a similar fashion to those of adults because of Freudian theory passing into mainstream culture as 'truth'. However, the man was talking bollocks. As someone else pointed out earlier, he uncovered almost endemic levels of incest and abuse endured by his female patients as children (some still as adults), and instead of looking at how childhood abuse had damaged his clients, he chose to pander to their rich, important male relatives instead, to save his own neck, and say that the women were troubled cos they'd secretly wanted abuse and enjoyed it. He also based his theories on sexuality on the 'truth' that females are malformed males and their sexual organs failed versions of what should've been penises, ie all that penis envy horseshit. However, that belief was entirely the wrong way round; all foetuses start off female and male genitalia is actually a version of female genitalia that didn't go to plan (massively simplifying here, but you get the gist!). The twat also said that only men can have a libido because women only have masochistic drives and can only derive pleasure from pleasing others (and thus debasing themselves, as they don't want sex but allow it to happen, blahblah), due to their inferiority as humans.

Because of his nonsense, there's a lingering view in some parts of Western society that girls secretly desire their fathers or father figures and that women are masochistic and therefore all have rape fantasies, which is what partly fuels rape and abuse apologism and helps perverts delude themselves.

I agree with all the above since your last post op.