I do not understand why people have kids when they can not afford them.

[sea74]

I know this topic will create lots of critics but i want to share my thoughts and see if anyone agrees or i am the odd one out.
I come from a european country where the fertility rate is 1.4 that is each woman/family has 1.4 child. Grandparents very often are the to help, but women (and men) are responsible enough not to have children if they can not afford them or look after them.
I grew up thinking that i want children not because i want them for me but because i have to donate life and their life must be a good life. Children are not mine but they are individuals.

Having said that, when i moved to the UK, i realised how things are different.
I feel that many people think children will not change their lives, they get pregnant easily, they do not really worry too much (and take contraception) in order to avoid pregnancies.
Then, when they have the child, you see that often these children live in broken families, or the single mothers do not have 50 pounds to buy them a decent meal, or they are left in front of the tv all summer because they had not planned childcare is expensive and grandparents live far.

Children should be planned carefully, i think and it is very selfish to have them without thinking of (and being ready for) the consequences.

At last, I'm SO glad that someone has stated that it's not a right to have children...thank GOD. The "it's our right to have babies" brigade boils my piss.

It is NOT a human right to have children. Surely you don't really think its your RIGHT??

Err it is actually. The right to live a normal family lifestyle. I suggest you actually read the human rights act before stating what is and is not included in it.

However, our current society has put a burden on parents.

Even not that long ago, parents (particularly poorer parents) would have children to contribute to the household finances (from a young age) and to keep them in old age.

These days children are largely not self sufficient, let alone contribute to bills, until quite late, and often then leave the home.
And then often it falls onto the state or the parent's themselves to fund retirement.

If we don't want child labour and want education for all, then we have to contribute towards those who want children but can't "afford" them.

In my view and I'm not saying I'm right, we confused RIGHTS and RESPONSIBILITIES to such an extent that they get mighty blurred. It is a privilege to have children - you DO NOT have a right to have them. Jeez.

"

Denise. Yes the government should intervene. On that logic should there be no minimum wage?
"
I don't think the minimum wage matters. There are far more people on low wages today than there were before the NMW was instituted. All it has done is put people whose labour is worth less than the NMW out of work permanently.

as a single parent of lots of children who has never claimed income related benefits ever op yabu.

if everybody waited untill they thought they could could afford to then hardly anybody would,no matter how much you earn you never think you have enough,first its lets wait till we have abc then its def all the way up to xyz. i have massive age gaps with most of my children the eldest was when i was 17 then the next 5 were to a dad who had the cheek to up and die without telling me in advance the next 2 to a dad who i married but shortly after the conception (planned) of our 2nd togather uped and left with a 17yo something to do with a midlife crisis my youngest are with a less than ideal now ex relationship. all of my kids are very well looked after and much loved including the ones i have inherited due to there single mother getting cancer.

if i had waited untill i knew for certain to have any then i would probally have none because first it would have been till i had earnt enough to do private schools ect then it would have been 'but i dont know if i can because it would have been a total unknown,say i only had my youngest then i would no way be as confident a parent as i am,thats something that comes from experance rather than just knowing.i also wouldnt have agreed to include my friends children in my family because my family would have been just me and i couldnt have known for sure i could all of a sudden cope with the suituation.my life would have been very lonesome and in no way as full as it is now.

the whole people having kids so they can get benefits is a really stupid one its actually very rare,i cannot remember off the top of my head exactly what percentage of sole benefit claiments have more than 3 kids but i do remember its less than 4% and of that less than 4% less than 25% of those have never worked,if you are to stupid to work out that the daily fail and other such publications as well as the gov perpetuate this work shy feckless single parent living it up on our taxes myth as a really good way to destract us from the real issues like tax avoidence and other such things going on in our country that they would prefer we didnt cotton on to then you are probally far to stupid to actually have any kids in the first place.

ask yourself this,
why concentrate more on something that costs the uk 4 billion in lost revenue rather than something that costs 70 billion?

why concentrate your efforts in slating the 1 out of every 10 hb claiments that dont work yet only disclose under pressure that it is only 1 out of 10?

why keep on using a directgov benefits checker that consistantly tells people they will get £100's more than they actually will because it wont take into acc the knock on effect of each benefit despite several benefit advisory services constantly challenging this even tho you know its the source of many of these bash a benefit claiment type of media story?

why keep on linking in imagration into the mix of housing/nhs/benefits/employment making it the only acceptable form of racisum despite knowing that these views are rare and based on your own hate mongering?

Article 16:

(1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.

(3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.

People have a RIGHT to have children but they also have a RESPONSIBILITY to provide for them and raise them properly. Far too many people think it is their RIGHT to have children and their RIGHT to have the state being RESPONSIBLE for providing for them (thru benefits) and raising them properly (thru schools). The onus on raising children is through parenting. Schools can only do a small part.

Then something needs to be done about crap wages. Or lets just stop poor people pro-creating all together and bring back work houses.

What a lovely society that would be!?

I'm off to bang my head against a brick wall.

Gin 30 - a hard one. Why is it, do you think, that so-called poor families tend to produce lots of kids? And before I'm jumped on I said tend to and not as an overall generalisation.

No Denise, children are the responsibility of the society, not singly the parents.

What do people suggest? Children's quotas relating to income? FFS!

Forcing abortions, removing children from their homes?

When I planned a family originally we had a household income of 36k and a cheap mortgage. After shit hitting the fan several times we now need benefits to top up the income from the crap jobs we have been able to get. Tell me OP what should I do with my pre-existing children?

Poorly educated women in the UK on the whole have no hope of EVER getting secure housing unless they have children.

Housing in the private sector is unaffordable to people on low wages, mortgages are unattainable, and public sector housing is generally only made available when the are issues of vulnerability - ie when children or the disabled or elderly are involved. No one wants to see children living on the streets in the UK.

If I was in the shoes of many of these women I would do EXACTLY what many do - have children, live off the state and try to get accommodated in social housing. What's the alternative? Minimum wage jobs, living in a bedsit and hoping some decent man will come along and transform their existence? (actually I wouldn't - I'd go to college, train, get a better job, start my own business, but then I think that way because I believe these things are possible for me, and that's because I'm not from the same sort of socially, educationally and culturally impoverished families as these women).

Point being - we all act out of self-interest.

You should give them to a rich person.

Arrgh this is a hard one. I know the Human Rights Act says you have a right to have kids, but TBH.... I often find myself thinking "you need a license to have a dog, but not to have kids".

I don't think anyone reasonable has a problem with people who find themselves pregnant by accident/suddenly their circumstances change.

I have a harder time with eg my best friend's sister who is getting into thousands of debt getting pregnant by sperm donor. She's late 30s, single and very desperate for a baby. She is in negative equity on her property and is in a very unsustainable financial situation. I do think she is being very irresponsible - I don't judge her means of getting pregnant, but I do judge her doing it in her circumstances. She also thinks that having a baby will make it easier to find a partner, but that's a whole other story....

Ultimately I do think having kids is a privilege not a right, regardless of what the law says. I know that's fair, but whoever said life was - even if the ideal in Western societies is equitable progress.

I mean I know that's NOT fair, just to clarify!!!

so-called poor families?? Seriously?? yes there are some people that take the piss (as we have all gone over already in this thread)

But they are in the minority, no matter how much the Daily Mail and Daivid Cameron want you to believe.

leuji also, it used to be that a WC man could earn a wage to support a family; with industry/manufacturing sent abroad options are limited. Sure, many work their way into blue collar job, but not everyone is cut out for that.

You cannot have a society where everyone is rich, not a capitalist society at least

Now come on, Gin, I'm not saying that families aren't poor - good God, my upbringing was hardly silver spoon and I didn't mean to imply what you appear to think I am. Sorry, it just came out wrong.

David Cameron and the Daily Mail, by the way, don't REALLY feature in my view of the world...just thought you may like to know.

Well said, Zara.

Are there enough rich people for that and do the children just get moved on if the shit hits the fan for their new family?

The shit doesn't hit the fan for people on their high horses. So best send them there.

Is that a joke usualsuspect?

Everyone's work is worth at least the pittance that is minimum wage. We need to higher minimum wage and a maximum wage.

She's being sarcastic krum

We need to stop thinking that only the wealthy should be allowed to have children.

No ifs or buts, just that.

Wow - I never knew having children was an actual human right.

For me that is crazy.

Having children is a privilege.

I fucking hate all this "it's my human right" shit. Entitlement to a tee.

Lapis and Zara - I completely agree.