I do not understand why people have kids when they can not afford them.

[sea74]

I know this topic will create lots of critics but i want to share my thoughts and see if anyone agrees or i am the odd one out.
I come from a european country where the fertility rate is 1.4 that is each woman/family has 1.4 child. Grandparents very often are the to help, but women (and men) are responsible enough not to have children if they can not afford them or look after them.
I grew up thinking that i want children not because i want them for me but because i have to donate life and their life must be a good life. Children are not mine but they are individuals.

Having said that, when i moved to the UK, i realised how things are different.
I feel that many people think children will not change their lives, they get pregnant easily, they do not really worry too much (and take contraception) in order to avoid pregnancies.
Then, when they have the child, you see that often these children live in broken families, or the single mothers do not have 50 pounds to buy them a decent meal, or they are left in front of the tv all summer because they had not planned childcare is expensive and grandparents live far.

Children should be planned carefully, i think and it is very selfish to have them without thinking of (and being ready for) the consequences.

And this includes the "system" that allows some people to pay a shedload less in tax than the rest of us mere mortals!

Of course, only the rich should have children and all parents should stay together and then the world would be ok

And this includes the "system" that allows some people to pay a shedload less in tax than the rest of us mere mortals!

Ah, let's have a little clarification here Lapis. You're complaining about low earners not paying as much in taxes as high earners? I think taxes should be RAISED for high earners.

I'm complaining (if that's the word) about the fact that it's legal for some "well-advised" individuals to squirrel dosh away off-shore and pay so little tax, eg Jimmy Carr.

I'm not actually blaming Jimmy Carr etc, just the law that allows this sort of accounting to happen. Highly appalling, in my view, of our govt to single him out when it's THEIR legislation that allowed it to happen.

I think Lapis is saying the system's F'd in the A and it's turned us all into silly crybabies.

Yep, that's about the sum of it, plonko!!

Ok Lapis, fair, I agree with that of course.

The list includes the likes of Bono.

wannabe the OP's country might be Germany, who have a very low birth rate but the government was until recently paying new mothers heaps of money for their first child as a kind of incentive because the native population was dropping so fast.

The German culture/national psyche is very different to ours and it explains a lot about their attitude to having children. Their population is now only kept buoyant by immigration.

Provided they are looked after properly a women/family should choose how many children she has. I have 5 DC. Some were planned some weren't. In any case I didn't plan on having two at once! Mine are well looked after and husband works while I look after DC. We don't claim benefits except CB. If anyone has a problem with that I couldn't give one. Some people only have a narrow world view and accept the world as it is now as the right/only way. Biologically women have children but in the social world different views apply and there is a tension betwen the two at times. Every women should decided themselves..

Ahem...I think plonko did create her situation, did she not?

she chose to get pg, and her dp chose to jack in job to persue dream career...therefore it is of plonkos own making

Exactlly jellybeans

My point was (though admittedly could have been said better) I would not move to another country and then criticise the citizens of that country. I would not call them irresponsible and selfish.

We all know this countrys system is flawed. Maybe some peoples attitudes could do with a shake up. But in this economy who can make a sweeping judgement on those who "cannot afford their children."

There are people finding themselves out of work everyday who have worked and paid their taxes all their lives.

If the government would establish a wage structure which atleast matches living costs then perhaps people wouldnt need to rely on state handouts to top up their income.

It seems to me that people who are not well off are looked down on for having children. But surely its everyones right to have children. The economy needs it. Society needs it.

I really am getting fed up of the wealthy calling single mums and struggling families irresponsible while fuckwit bankers and politicians get to take risks and talk about us like they know us without consequence.

It is not the governments job to "establish wage structures" for private businesses. Most of the problems in this country today have been caused by the government interfering in people's lives and people having expectations of what the government will do for them, instead of doing it for themselves.

Icecold in a way I agree - I did this knowingly. My point was that I had tried to create the perfect situation before trying for a baby. The fact is DP was kind of deceived by a friend, told he would get paid then nada. No state help available, so we buy sainsburys basics now instead of taste the difference

plonko you said dp was only not paid for 6 weeks....so that is just a temporary thing which you had no control over. The rest of it was a conscious decision

Anyway..I aint knocking you, just saying you arent a 'victim of fate' or what have you....

We have 4DC all planned. We take nothing from the system apart from CB well even that's going next year. DH pays an awful to of tax, I don't work as the cost of childcare would mean I would be paying to go to work. We chose to have 4DC and have adjusted our lifestyle accordingly.

If DH were to die, lose his job, bugger off I would hope the state could provide for us until I could get sorted out, I was once a tax payer as well.

I'm also raising 4 taxpayers.

Ice let me reiterate "we are expecting a child we probably 'can't afford'". Never said anything about being a victim!

It is not the governments job to "establish wage structures" for private businesses.

Some people might disagree. The Green Party has a living wage campaign. If people want the government to tackle low wages and the high cost of living then it is their job. They are meant to be public servants, only we know that they serve the rich, obviously.

Some of the poor-bashing and snobbery expressed in this thread makes me think that MN needs a facepalm icon!

Denise. Yes the government should intervene. On that logic should there be no minimum wage?

I've not read the whole thread I was under the impression that it was one's human right to have children regardless of their economic situation.

Also, since the welfare state began all those years ago the birth rate has actually fallen. Sure there are a few who have more than the average but equally there are those that have none.

Who decides how much money one should have before having children anyway? This reminds me if a conversation I once had with a 'friend' who asked why African people have children when they are so poor.

It is NOT a human right to have children. Surely you don't really think its your RIGHT??

Of course it's a human right.
Reproduction is the main drive in evolution.
Feeding is just a means to survive enough to produce and care for babies.

Assisted reproduction is another thing.

What is the definition of not affording children? If we had waited until we could afford them I would have been in the menopause!

We knew we would have to lose an income we moved to a cheaper area (well country) we don't have 2 new cars in the drive or take foreign holidays anymore.

If you have children you cannot expect to have the same amount of income as when you didn't.

Everyone's definition of affording it is different for some people it's the basics of food and clothes, others it's holidays, others it's private education.

If we all waited until we could truly afford them then I think we'd have a population shortage.

The welfare states, however, don't contribute for adults to have children.
They contribute towards the child's survival, as it's a human right to survive once in this world, as well as to education, etc.