To wonder what Black athletes have....

[CrispyCod]

......that make them so superior in performance. It has to be genetic. I am in awe of them as they appear to glide effortlessly around the track. The Jamaican athletes are just wow! Their speed is just amazing.

I agree that it is not selective breeding. Jamaicans have a winning attitude and a pride in their country which is hard to beat. It is drummed into them from birth that they must love their country and work hard. All the crap you see on TV about laid back jamaicans is only the outside. On the inside they are determined people. My mother came to England at 13 and had a better job than many of her friends that were born in this country through this attitude.

ah another snide little reply

Where exactly???

I haven't responded to your comment of snide replies. You're obviously just shit stirring. If you cannot add any intelligent posts to this thread as others have done today why don't you just go elsewhere.

World I am glad you have taken something positive from this thread.

Waterlego an excellent post. You're absolutely right there is a very negative connotation to the word ignorant.

Adjective:

1.Lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated.
2.Lacking knowledge, information, or awareness about something in particular: "ignorant of astronomy".

Everyone has areas of life that that they are ignorant about. Everyone is ignorant about someones culture/race/lifestyle. No one can know everything about everyone. To pretend you're not makes you arrogant or a fool.

Being ignorant does not mean you can't strive to self educate. Not just say, "I'm right, you're wrong, so ner."

There has been many a time when I have been ignorant or said something ignorant, but unlike some posters I am happy to frequently reflect and adjust my way of thinking when challenged.

Porcamiseria please note roundtable's intelligent contribution to the thread. That is how it's done.

Take that as a snide remark if you wish.

I'm returning to this thread somewhat disappointed by the polarisation of views on whether or not the original question and some of the subsequent replies could be deemed as racist. Like Worldcitizen and others, I came to this with no experience of either being black or indeed any second-hand experience via close family members or friends. I've considered this thread a massive learning curve in that respect.

However hard it may be to hear what Creighton and others have said, I do feel it's distasteful to dismiss their views as hysterical since they have first-hand experience of exactly how such a discussion would impact upon them - indeed, many have posted articulately about how this discussion has made them feel second class citizens and reinforced their belief that casual racism is alive and well.

My impression of the OP is that she's not concerned about that impact and it's simply a case of "I have a right to ask the question". Perhaps I'm wrong and certainly it could be that her responses to those opinions have been on the defensive side since she has been accused essentially of making racist comments. However, I'm perplexed as to why the right to ask the question invalidates the pain it causes those who's identity and cultural history is up for discussion? How do you feel about your OP CrispyCod? Do you regret it in any way? Do you at least concede that the question could have been worded more specifically?

As to those who posted asking why it's okay for the BBC and Channel 4 to air such questions but not here on MN, there is a very clear answer. The Channel 4 documentary was presented by a black athlete - someone who's very nature is questioned by this issue. I didn't see it but the blurb accompanying the documentary is very very specific -
Olympian Michael Johnson embarks on a personal genealogical and scientific journey in a bid to understand if he and other world-class African American and Caribbean athletes are successful as a result of slavery

There's no reference to black people as a homogenous ethnic group and a specific hypothesis as to the impact of the history upon the descendents of the slavery trade. The fact that it's presented by a black man is significant I think although I'm not entirely sure why I think that. There's something inappropriate about a member of an entirely different racial group with a completely different history (that of the dominator rather than the oppressed) asking these types of questions. I can't imagine why CrispyCod can't see this.

As for the BBC documentary, unfortunately and somewhat surprisingly, the question was much more open and not dissimilar to the OP. It did raise complaints and much of them in the same vein as those posters who are objecting to it here. There's an interesting blog detailing one such complaint and the comments on that blog make an interesting comparison for this thread. modernemeid.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/survival-of-fittest-my-complaint-to-bbc.html

So, OP, back to you...

"why don't you just go elsewhere.

going to hide thread, as I hate being nasty to strangers on the net, and yet I am veering towards that

I just got hacked off, really I did. So many TIMES on MN I see stuff thats racist, but people dont realise it is so. This is the third in a year...

HIDE THREAD

Cash I do have some responses to your questions which I would like to answer fully than writing down just a few quick remarks. I'm at work at the moment and about to go into a meeting so can't respond fully right now.
Just wanted to get that in just in case anyone thinks my absence is because I am ignoring your questions.

Until later.

Off you go then porcamiseria

Thanks Crispy - I appreciate your taking the time to answer. Look forward to your responses later.

Cash in response to your thread earlier today...

I have had chance to read back over the entire thread. I wanted to do that so I could refresh myself on the comments made, identify those that are deemed racist and to understand Creighton?s and others points of view.

The beginning of the thread seemed to attract many posters adding their thoughts and theories, most seemed to have been learned and quoted from articles they had read or documentaries that they had watched. The comments that most of them wrote were from the heart and what they truly believed to be factual and from what I believe were not written with any malice or with racist intent. I do not support the theories of connection to slavery and I DO think the comments made about nostrils, heavy bones, ?blacks don?t crack? and braids are unacceptable. I can fully understand these comments causing offence to Creighton and others. Many of Creighton?s earlier posts appear to have been deleted along with many others. I think it was then that the thread started to take on a different tone than intended when these comments were made.

You asked How do you feel about your OP CrispyCod? Do you regret it in any way? Do you at least concede that the question could have been worded more specifically?

I don?t regret it and still feel that it is a valid subject for discussion. You expressed this yourself in your post 5 Aug 13:46

I'm coming to this thread slightly late but my tuppence worth is that it's an interesting discussion and one well worth having on MN where people are open to admitting ignorance and welcome being educated. I for one have absolutely no idea what the answer is to the question the OP is posing and the varying answers on this thread have opened my eyes to possibilities I wouldn't have even considered

Creighton also expressed this view too: 5 Aug 20:00

i never really had a problem with the op, i was annoyed by the responses.

I?m very disappointed in the direction the thread took. Whilst many added very interesting posts which I found informative (which is what I intended) others took opportunity in bringing the tone of the thread down.

I described Creighton?s tone as aggressive last night. Reading back through the threads which prompted her responses I can see why she was angry and upset. Creighton?s writing style might not be as eloquent as other?s, she may not be able to translate her thoughts onto paper as others do when faced with a sensitive topic. I don?t claim to have writing skills any better than her and perhaps should have made my opening post a little clearer. It was posted quickly at the time a Jamaican athlete had just won a race with an awesome performance. Clearly to some the true intention of the thread didn?t translate by the way it was written down. We all know how easily the tone of written communication can be misinterpreted.

You add My impression of the OP is that she's not concerned about that impact and it's simply a case of "I have a right to ask the question".

I believe everyone has a right to question things in life. Through questioning it is how we learn which many people on this thread did. Worldcitizen posted some good comments about this. Saying that, you lose control of a thread the moment you open it to the forum. If people choose to abuse the forum and post disgusting racist remarks then they are accountable for this and deserve the responses they receive. Creighton did indeed pull some up for their responses but unfortunately MNHQ deemed them unacceptable. Again, I think this was unfortunately due to the tone/language she used in the post.

I do believe this thread has run its course. It has descended to a thread which now attracts posts that are neither informative or insightful and are as low as the comments which Creighton and others were appalled by. I have truly appreciated the intelligent and informative input to the thread and will take that content away with me.

CrispyCod

Thank you very much. And thanks to many others, see you on the next thread , but for now...

...I am also retreating to something else...

...called football game between Germany and Argentina

Hi World ...thanks! Enjoy the match!

there is nothing wrong with my writing style.

i write in short sentences so that my thoughts are not misinterpreted. i am eloquent enough when i can be bothered and when the subject and other posters are worth the effort. i did not think that the majority of posters on here were worth the effort. other people dealt crassly with a sensitive subject. i merely responded in a way that would get their attention. i have been at work all day and have not reread the thread so i have no idea if any posts other than mine have finally been deleted.

again, i am not happy at being used as a 'learning experience' for other people who then sign off pleased with themselves.

Who are you suggesting is pleased with themselves?

Thanks Crispy - that was a really full answer to all my musings.

Funny you should pick up on one of my previous posts - that was the exact post that I had gone back and read again which prompted me to ask if you regretted the actual wording of the OP. Certainly at the time of posting, it didn't occur to me that the question itself could be construed as racist but then reading after my post, there were many many posters (not just Creighton but she was among them) whose posts really hit home how an assertion that a skin colour could somehow determine magical qualities which overrode hard work and determination could be seen as offensive.

It was what Chaz and Roundtable said that really rammed it home although Creighton and Porca certainly made me sit up and take notice! I had to take what they posted and translate it to my own experience - I absolutely hate being categorised as "Asian" on any forms or even being referred to that way although it's a common category in this day and age. It rankles that I'm stuck in group which covers hundreds of countries most of which have no racial link and definitely very few cultural ties. I imagine that most people outside that category would not see why it bothers me but its my right to be bothered by it and if other people don't understand that, then that's tough.

I feel embarrassed that I didn't see that connotation when I posted my remark - I just wondered if you felt that too. My references to being on a "learning curve" really directly relate to my sudden awakening mid-thread that even discussing the question is highly suspect and certainly the language used in the original OP was not well thought out although well-meaning I think.

We shall have to agree to differ I think but let's do it in a civilised way! I agree that this thread has served a purpose and I'm glad we're all "moving on"...

As usual what is offensive about these threads is not that people say stupid, ignorant, hurtful and racist things, which is unsurprising. It is that when someone comes back and complains about some of the things that are said, there are scores of posters waiting to downplay what they feel.

Eg:

• This is not `racism', racism has these specific forms. Since what was said is not technically racist, you do not have the right to be offended.
• If you were offended, you must be one of the people who goes around looking for things to be offended by.
• If you claim to be offended, you are actually a white person who thinks they know what is offensive to non-white people. The people the comment was about would not be offended by it. This usually means that anyone who objects to anything has to repeatedly 'prove their credentials' by explaining that they are in the group concerned, and if not then their objection has no validity.
• Other people in the group referred to find your objections to these comments patronizing. Often in the form "My DH/BIL/friend etc. is in that group and he would agree with the comment. He finds it bizarre that some politically correct white people consider that statement to be racist."
• To object to racist language and discussion is to be 'touchy'. By objecting to racism against a certain group you are claiming that all people in that group are 'touchy', this is itself racist.
• If we are not free to discuss racist ideas, how can we decide whether they are correct or not?
• If you object to racism you are claiming that all people are exactly identical. Often with the laughable codicil that this claim is itself racist or hurtful to non-white people.
• You misguidedly think you would like the right not to have hurtful things to be said to you. But if people stopped saying them you would be losing out in some way. For instance, if you object to racism people will stop sharing their good-natured banter with you.
• Because of people who object to racism, we cannot celebrate the positive things about people of other backgrounds.
• This particular term or idea is expressed all the time by lots of people. Therefore it is not racist.
• Many people who say racist things do not mean them in a racist way. Therefore they should be free to keep saying them and no-one should object.
• People will eventually stop saying racist things of their own accord. Therefore it is unnecessary to keep pointing out racism and objecting to it.
• All forms of offensive language are equally offensive regardless of whether they are racist or not. This includes some extremely mild and good humored forms. Therefore racism is not offensive.
• Many or all white people have traits which are analogous to being in an ethnic minority, eg. being ginger, having a moustache, dressing scruffily etc. These people suffer discrimination without complaining about it, therefore you should not complain about racist discrimination.
• You are in a group that is particularly strident about objecting to racism. People in other ethnic minorities do not object to the same type of comment referring to them.

As we have seen in this thread along with many others, when racist comments about white people are made, invariably tongue-in-cheek, posters have no problem accepting them as racist and objecting to them vociferously.

Darn, forgot a few:

• Everyone is a little bit racist, therefore there is no need to point out and object to racism every time it takes place.
• People in ethnic minorities are much more racist towards other ethnic minorities than white people are. Therefore to constantly object to white people being racist is itself a form of racism against white people.
• Some nonwhite people are racist towards white people. This means that racism is okay.

Thank God for you, LaLa - you have articulated the unspoken assumptions that have littered this thread perfectly.

I hope some people have taken something away from this thread and it's so not embarrassing answers to the original question the OP posed.

Very very good post, Lala, thank you.