To think that society should support women to have children early in adult life

[ReallyTired]

Babies born to older mothers have a higher risk of special needs, it is harder to concieve after 35 and there are more likely to be complications with giving birth and pregnancy. It is far easier to give get pregnant and birth at 25 than 40.

Unfortunately women are under huge pressure to put off childbearing until their late thirties because its very hard to build a career after children. I feel that there should be more help for mothers returning to the workplace after children and stronger legistation to combat age discrimination. Ie apprenticeships should be open to mothers returning/ starting out in the work place as well as under 25s. I would like more help to allow mothers to have career breaks and return to the work place.

Surely its easier to change the attitudes of employers than basic biology. (Ie. its far easier to have a challenging career starting in your 40s than to start a family.

I was pg at 18 with dd and feel I had loads of opportunities given to me to go back into education and training which I took advantage of and have now got a pretty good career. I missed out on travelling, going on holiday with my mates and having a disposable income to spend on myself. There are good and bad points for having babies younger and older IMO.

"Thanks mrsjay! "

you are welcome you didnt rant IMO you made valid points

Do careers need to be like that, though, hopefully? And if they do, do we need better systems for childcare and flexible working?

I guess I have a rose-tinted view as some of the women I know who are great advocates and success stores for having your children when it is right for you are those who had them during university, and they were able to access enough support, and those who had bosses who were really personally supportive and made an unusual effort. I know that's not the norm. I just wish it could be and think it would honestly be more productive. I think the current system is really inefficient - the structures of most jobs still have not changed substantially for decades, and the social structures were very different then.

In my bit of Australia, if you work for the government, you can return to your job for up to 7 years after taking maternity leave.

In one way this is very good, but hell for the many on contract work who cannot get ongoing posts.

I hate that the first reason given why older women shouldnt have babies is
'the higher risk of SN'

I find it offensive in so many ways.
Like older women have a moral responsibility not to breed incase they produce an imperfect child.
Like having a child with SN is a bad bad thing and should always be avoided. Better not take the chance at all.

It comes up time and time again on these threads and is rarely challenged.

I have five children.
DD - had when I was 25 - died aged 14
DS1 - had when i was 27 - so far healthy
DS2 - had when I was 36 - numerous SN dx - I didnt give birth to him, his 17 year old birth mother did.
DS3 - had when I was 40 - no SN so far
DS4 - had when i was 43 - no SN so far

Ok its not a scientific study and its a small sample but you might be able to see why I think 'ffs' when someone trots out the 'HIGH RISK' malarky.

Basically people are talking about Down Syndrome because most people dont even know what they are talking about when they speak darkly of SN and disability.

Gatheringgarlic, you dont seem to understand. I wanted to have the fun of traveling, being free, and irresponsible without the burden of having children to look after. Out of interest, how would you suggest having both would have worked?

echt - yeah, that doesn't sound more than a half-arses solution.

Sorry. MrsDeVere I cross posted. I'm so sorry.

yes mrs DV they are talking about downs syndrome , the general they, it is insulting I agree with you that breeding when younger is better for the human race , My mum had a disabled child at 19

What lizzylou and mrsdv said. With knobs on.

I'm with Noquontrol: I wanted to spend my 20s and 30s rampaging around, drinking and shagging and working on my career. I didn't want to have to look after small children. I had my DS by accident at 39 and that's worked fine for us.

What are you sorry about LRD?
I cant see anything you need to apologise for!

Thank you for raising the point about SN, LRD. I'd missed that in the OP.

Tehtersend - I often think forlornly of Iceland (as was) and Bjork.

Personally, I think that behind the move to older mothers is a shift in economic structure. Women have started working in large numbers and we haven't noticed how hard we are all working, to achieve what is perhaps a lower standard of living than that of our parents's generation. It doesn't yet feel as though it's lower, because it's masked by the fact that in many households, there are now two adult incomes where before there would have been one.

Yes, women working has brought greater autonomy. I do think that. But we haven't noticed that things are also a lot tougher economically. The economic uncertainty, and fear that drives the delay of that first child is massive.

The saving for a mortgage before having a first child is particularly ironic, given that I think it's unlikely many of us will get through old age with anything substantial to "pass on".

I think there's also a touch of fear-of-economic-uncertainty (and basically a mistrust that there will be a welfare state in years to come) that drives the push to find the Right Partner ... though I will concede that there is also a fair bit of emotional and romantic stuff in there too.

Basically, I think if we felt we were living in times of plenty, with lots of fulfilling work opportunities, low work hours, wages that could purchase desirable leisure activities quite esasily, we'd be a lot happier about taking the "risk" of having children, and do it without the economic steel-girding we try and put in place, because having a child/ren would be less of an economic risk.

I think all women should get access to training when they want to re-enter the workplace regardless of what age they are.

Gatheringlilac. My idea of fun, travelling and career in my 20s were not compatible with raising a family!

Lots of all night partying, lots of backpacking in remote areas and lots of working all hours because it was actually quite fun to work late on a Friday and then go off to a bar in London and miss the last train home!

Yes I agree ohdo, I have looked after many children with various needs and the mothers vary in age from teens to forties with no distinguishable patterns relating to age of mother and what needs their child has.

My Nan, who would be 100 now, had her first child at 38. She would have told you to keep your eyes on your own knitting. Only with swearing.

MrsDV - that's very kind. I meant, I am sorry for your loss and I didn't want you to think I'd read your post and not bothered to acknowledge it.

Yabu-I didn't have my first until I was 30, this had nothing to do with a career & everything to do with wanting to see certain parts of the world before I was too old, knackered & skint to do so after bringing up children.

I fell pregnant both times on the 1st attempt & had 2 easy pregnancies & very quick & easy births so you are talking utter bollocks-sorry.

I was 27 when I had my DS who was starved of oxygen at birth and developed special needs, this can happen to anyone at any age, there are only a few of special need conditions which are associated with the mothers age.
IME there is a lot more kids with genetic disorders, and your genes are you genes whether you at 20 or 40.
What is wrong with supporting women who want children when it is right for them?

I think Wordfactory summed this up perfectly. However, the culture of youth that is now firmly entrenched is instrumental in people having children later in life. The fact is that both men and women are basically encouraged to act like "kidults" well into their 30's - and 40's for men.

I remember ages ago reading about Chris Moyles dropping his long term girlfriend citing the reason that he wasn't ready to grow up yet. I think he was late 30's at the time as was she. The same happened to a friend of mine - the man she was with for most of her thirties dropped her as she approached 40. Her opinion was that he had robbed her of her chance to have children.

Society is set up to discourage having children in your twenties. Culturally and financially there are so many barriers.

I think "older" parents have a huge amount to give but I can't help looking at another friend of mine who had her girls in her early twenties and is now having a blast in her mid 40's and enjoying a rip roaring career after a break in her twenties and wondering if she did it the right way round. In my mid 40's the oldest of mine will just be entering his teens.

Noquontrol I'm not sure how I envisage it. I just know that that is not how it is at the moment. At the moment, a woman has a child, and she is pretty much solely responsible for that child (or she and her partner are). Child-rearing is privatised - a private issue, for a private "family" (be that single parent or double parent or whatever). And there are huge implications in that for women, and women's freedom. And yes, I do mean women, because it is largely women who are affected by this. Not men. Not yet, anyway.

One of the major constraints affecting women's freedom post-children is, I think, the expense of having children and parenting. If you can't afford to pay someone else to do many of the things you have to do when rasing a child, you have to do it yourself, and that costs time (and freedom).

I can't help but feel there really should be a better way of organising it all.

I wonder if the whole women-having-children-later thing is actually available to be read as a protest, in some way. The glimmerings of a kind of labour strike. "Oi. Society. All of us. Start rearranging things better, or there will be no-one to look after us all when we're old." but obviously not in a very conscious way.

I think society should be more accepting of women who make the choice to not have children, rather than making them feel like they are weird for not wanting children .ir feeling sorry for them. It should be a completely legitimate choice.

ah I see LRD I was worried you thought you had offended me!
Thank you for your kind words

I don't think it is discouraged to have children in your 20's. When I told the doctor at 23 I had decided to have an abortion(at 8 weeks) he told me I was being selfish and had no reason to abort.
I had many very good reasons, not least that the father and I had split up very acrimoniously and I had nowhere to live, and he was threatening me with a custody battle, but he, and the nurses in the hospital, who were vile to me, didn't see it like that.