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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wish the word "narc" and its general usage could be wiped off the face of Mumsnet.

144 replies

GothAnneGeddes · 15/07/2012 11:27

Narc as in short for Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

There is a lot of debate about personality disorders within mental health and how they should be categorised anyway.

Often this term is used on Mumsnet when the person has never been diagnosed with any form of mental health issue, it's just a lazy shorthand for behaviours that the poster doesn't like. Then you have people who've never even met the person being discussed diagnosing them with it on here.

AIBU to think that armchair diagnosis is a bad idea and it needs to stop?

OP posts:
Latara · 17/07/2012 07:07

''Actually Dr... it's not me; it's you!!'' Grin

AmberLeaf · 17/07/2012 07:12

Daisys first post is why raising awareness is essential. (Not that it would make much difference by the looks of it)

Moominsarescary · 17/07/2012 07:23

There will always be stupid people who don't believe some conditions exist

AmberLeaf · 17/07/2012 07:31

...And those people should continue to be challenged.

garlicbutter · 17/07/2012 15:08

My reaction to your posts is also "bless you", Latara. It sounds as though you're making heroic progress in managing your condition. I wish you continued good support, and as much self-forgiveness as it takes for you to feel more comfortable.

I think the fact I guessed you had a PD from your posts says enough about my take on the OP's problem.

Some internet sources wrongly conflate sociopathy and anti-social personality disorder. ASPD is basically psychopathy, and I've certainly no reason to think you have that!
You might not want to read the next part of this post. It may turn out quite long.

Sociopathy is an umbrella term meaning "a personality disorder characterized by a lack of social responsibility and failure to adapt to ethical and social standards of the community". The definition is quoted from an up-to-date medical dictionary.

You say "I'm disorganised & can be paranoid" and "my Psychologist has helped me with strategies to stop feeling too paranoid around my (really lovely) colleagues." To many NT people, this would translate as a lack of social responsibility. I'm happy for you, that you're learning to manage the paranoia in particular, as you know it can lead to social irresponsibility - by NT standards - and doesn't fit with the social standards of our community.

When you say "I can only work 2 days a week due to severe BPD & recurrent depressive disorder symptoms", you are saying that you're not adapted to the social standards of our NT community (because those standards hurt you).

Paranoia and depression, intense emotional dependence on other people, absence and catatonia all work against the ethical standards of our NT community. I suffer from some of those things myself; it's clear that my depression in particular works against the social norms of our NT community.

Nobody's saying there are absolute rights and wrongs. As I'm quite sure anyone in therapy knows, absolutism is itself disordered. Psychiatry is all about whether people are able to fit in with the norms of their present society. NT personalities are flexible so that, by and large, we intuitively adapt to our social circumstances. Because we have flexible personalities and expect other people to, our society calls less-adaptable personalities disordered. It's very hard for an NT person to understand how a PD mind (any PD) differs from 'normal' - and it's hard for the PD person to imagine the fluidity of an NT personality.

Again, this is not to call either variety 'wrong'. Have you heard the philosopher's conundrum about "reality", regarding the cave-dwellers?

A group of people live in a large cave, cut off from the outside world, and have done for generations. To them the world is dark and ends at stone walls, the sky is stone, day and night are indistinguishable, light is phosphorescence. Their cave is the world as far as they know.
One day a tribe member climbs out of the cave and sees the world in daylight, blue sky, sunshine, clouds, distant horizons, trees & flowers, all that.
Excited, she climbs back down to tell the others about what she's discovered. She says the cave is not the world. There's a whole other world beyond it: a world without walls or ceiling; where the light is dazzling and universal; full of new an colourful life forms! Come and see! she says.
Don't be daft, they all say, look around you! This is the world! It's always been the world, since time immemorial. You must have been at the hallucinogenic fungi.
No, she says, come with me now! You'll see!
For fucks sake, they all go, you're talking crazy. Other world? You must be mad!

The cave-dwellers aren't wrong because their definition of 'world' is, in fact, a cave.
The explorer isn't wrong because she did see what she saw.
But, if she wants to stay among her people, she must accept the world is a cave and live accordingly. She will have to admit that she's mad.
If she won't accept that, she'll have to go back outside and live alone.
Tough call.

Conversations between NTs and 'nons' tend to take on the air of the explorer's conversation with the cave-dwellers. Neither really gets how the other can see things so differently. I am not wrong to say you, as a BPD sufferer, can't see where I'm coming from. Neither are you wrong to point out I'm not describing the world as you see it.

It really is all a matter of prevalence, the whole lot of it. And I am not sure any of this will make sense to many people! But it will to some, so I'm posting it :)

Pax, Latara?

Ormiriathomimus · 17/07/2012 15:15

Oooh dear. I posted a thread along these lines a few years ago. I didn't so much get flamed as slow-roasted over an open fire .....

TheBigJessie · 17/07/2012 15:21

Eh, it's a grey area.

But I would like to second what HecateHarshPants said on page 1 about autism.

Autistic spectrum disorders do not equal "deliberately being a arsehole".

GothAnneGeddes · 17/07/2012 17:36

Orm - Interesting. What did those who were YABU-ing give as their reasons?

OP posts:
TheLightPassenger · 17/07/2012 17:48

Agree with Jessie, I really don't believe there is such a straightforward NT/BPD binary as you imply garlic.

garlicbutter · 17/07/2012 18:07

But nobody's said it's a binary Confused Of course it isn't. All human beings are somewhere on a continuum - or continua (ums?) depending on the conversation.

Doesn't alter the fact that a person in the 'normal' cluster and someone elsewhere on the spectrum have exceedingly different world-views and are pretty much in the cave-dweller >< explorer situation.

TheBigJessie · 17/07/2012 19:28

Oh, I wouldn't like to comment on BPD! I know very little about it. LightPassenger, you've ascribed greater wisdom to my post than was there. Wink

I was actually referring to the presence of armchair diagnosis on MN as a whole. Sometimes, posters get it right. They persuade other women that they should see a doctor about possible PND, for example. The calls of "narc" are a bit tedious, I grant, but I think some of the people in armchairs posting are more accurate than others. Even when it's more a case of Bastard Disorder than NPD, I have come to notice that it takes a medical label to jerk people out of the "It's all MY fault s/he treats me like this" mindset. I'm not quite sure how to word this. I read posts, and think, "nonsense- where's your psychology degree? Oh wait, you wouldn't post that if you had one!", but I also think that sometimes those posts actually improve the world for someone.

But some of it is just "I read this book about sociopaths last month, and I've now come to realise that everyone I know is one, except for my cousin" wittering.

TheLightPassenger · 17/07/2012 19:35

Sorry BigJessie, I didn't meant to speak for you re:the BPD stuff! I completely agree it's a shame that it takes a medical label for people (usually women on here, of course) to stop blaming themselves/thinking they can fix their partner.

Garlic - I suppose by binary, I meant that you seemed to be seeing someone with a DX as being so "other" that they have a different worldview compared to someone without.

TheBigJessie · 17/07/2012 19:57

Hey, don't worry. I like it when people agree with me, even if I don't deserve it!

garlicbutter · 17/07/2012 20:06

Light, I can't really do more than what I said in my last post. Jessie's put my own perspective pretty well. When you realise the person you love and share your life with isn't what you thought (or assumed) they were - it feels as though they're "other". I'm not dividing the world into black & white. It looks to me as if some objectors want me to. I can't; I don't believe human nature works that way.

I'm clearly unsuccessful in clarifying my pov any better, so I guess I should leave it.

Latara · 18/07/2012 00:04

Hi, been busy, anyway i read your long post garlic & think i sort of understand what you are trying to say.
Yes i find that due to my problems i do see things differently from some other people; but what is annoying is that i'm careful at work to be understanding & try to see things from others' POV. I try never to be bitchy or offhand because i find it hurtful when others' are like that.
Also if a colleague is not nice & makes me feel angry / upset then i like to clear the air straight away & be honest with each other about things - because when i haven't done this; then i have ended up feeling suicidal & thinking colleagues are plotting against me etc etc - not pleasant.
I make a lot of effort with colleagues, yet they are so-called 'normal' with no MH diagnosis - & they can behave really badly! Also some are old enough to be my parents; yet they act like teenagers (gossiping & bitching).

To be honest it's the ward 'politics' - the gossiping & cliques - that i find extremely hard to understand & cope with; that's one of the reasons i can only cope with 2 shifts a week.
I wouldn't call that 'sociopathic' - as part of my problem is neurological (ie a physical health problem).

I'm on high dose epilepsy meds so i get tired; plus the absences get worse due to anxiety or without enough sleep. Then my memory & clarity of thought get impaired; which makes me feel frustrated, then depressed & then the BPD symptoms become a problem.

I prefer it when people are straightforward, nice & not two-faced - like my closest friends basically. I don't feel comfortable with an atmosphere where people are nice to each other's face then horrible behind their backs - a lot of my younger colleagues feel the same about that; but the difference is that they don't end up feeling paranoid & suicidal because of it - they still get quite fed up & miserable though.

I know i see things differently & get feelings of unreality etc; plus some hypomania etc but although i hate depression especially, i also wouldn't be 'me' if i was 'normal'. I've learnt to accept myself & i'm creative & imaginative, i'm used to seeing things others don't see (been like that since childhood) so it's not so scary.
Ironically since i started being 'myself' & accepted the way i am - i felt more confident & that's when i started making lots more friends & have started to attract nicer men.

Just still frustrated over certain problems but i'm determined to keep fighting to keep my job & keep to a more normal routine as well.

Anyway hope that helps to explain things a bit, sorry don't like going on about myself too much but i think it may help others with similar problems maybe.

garlicbutter · 18/07/2012 00:34

I think it will help others, Latara, and am glad you posted about yourself :)

since i started being 'myself' & accepted the way i am - i felt more confident & that's when i started making lots more friends

I hope you realise what a massive breakthrough this is! Well done, you.

One of the unexpected things about having a not-normal mentality is the way our treatment works through self-knowledge. You'd probably agree, I guess, that good psychotherapy leads to much greater self-insight than most healthy NT people have. It's a paradox, but I wouldn't be without it.

Latara · 18/07/2012 00:44

Thanks; I see an NHS Consultant Psychologist once a month; she's very good & mainly concentrated on helping me with my return to work - i used the strategies that she's suggested & they have worked.

Eurostar · 18/07/2012 01:21

I do have to challenge you though when you say Latara that someone cannot have a diagosis of more than one PD. I translate medical reports and examples I can remember include reports that name BPD plus another PD.

I have used the word narcissist on Mumsnet (and am not ashamed of it!) when I have shared books and websites that I have found useful. Wendy Behary's book "disarming the narcissist" has been tremendously useful to me in managing some key difficult relationships in my life. The website, daughters of narcissistic mothers, has helped a friend of mine a great deal in realising that her fight to get approval from her mother was in vain. I in no way mean that people with a set of difficult behaviours have a personality disorder.

I have a friend who has decided that she has bi-polar through watching Eastenders and reading online. She cannot get an assessment from a psychiatrist unless she pays big bucks because the cash strapped NHS in her area will only give people who are actively a danger to themselves or others psychiatric time. She has gone out and bought self help books on managing mood swings. These have helped her and she functions well without medication. Does it matter if she doesn't actually have it? I don't know....

Latara · 18/07/2012 01:48

No, you can have more than one PD.
Also people with PDs can have other mental health co-morbidities eg. addictions, OCD, depression (like me), bi-polar etc.
I meant that certain PDs are very different from some others, even in the same cluster; personally i can't imagine a person with BPD being a Narcissist - i could be wrong, but me & the other 2 young women with BPD i have met so far are definitely not narcissistic.

The other 2 women were alcoholics, & i have an addictive personality; i think that addictions are a way of coping when you have BPD.

I agree that NHS mental health services need to improve. Unless patients actually need sectioning then it's difficult to get the help needed sometimes.

But self-diagnosing bipolar isn't a good idea; the mood swings could be caused by a different mental health problem... however, using a book to help manage mood swings - whatever the cause - is good.

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