To wish the word "narc" and its general usage could be wiped off the face of Mumsnet.

[GothAnneGeddes]

Narc as in short for Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

There is a lot of debate about personality disorders within mental health and how they should be categorised anyway.

Often this term is used on Mumsnet when the person has never been diagnosed with any form of mental health issue, it's just a lazy shorthand for behaviours that the poster doesn't like. Then you have people who've never even met the person being discussed diagnosing them with it on here.

AIBU to think that armchair diagnosis is a bad idea and it needs to stop?

Actually, personalty disorders are not that rare. Even conservative estimates put them at a prevelance of 1 in 100, so most people will have encountered someone with one, in fact most people will have met a few.

Of course internet diagnoses should be taken with a huge bucket of salt, but actually recognising that such people exist, and are actually more common then most people realise is not a bad thing. From what I can see, a lot of posters in abusive relationships spend a long time going round in circles trying to figure out what they are doing wrong in their relationship. Pointing out to them that there may be something wrong with the other person that leads them to behave abusively, regardless of anything that the poster is or isn't doing, can actually be quite a helpful way of bringing them out of that cycle of self-questioning.

garlic, that really wasn't a fair question to yellow, reading one book on PDs isn't going to give you a huge amount of knowledge about BPD.

Maybe a better way of looking at it is why people feel forced into tolerating abusive behaviour from a partner, rather than sticking amateur psychiatric labels on them as a justification for leaving. I.e instead of saying - I need to leave as this person can't change, saying I need to leave as this person either can't or won't change?

garlic, that really wasn't a fair question to yellow, reading one book on PDs isn't going to give you a huge amount of knowledge about BPD

Obviously! But isn't that why a question was asked?

From how I read garlic post she was saying she didn't particularly agree witg what her book said re BPD.

I don't think I've seen it,but I kinda agree it's one thing to say a new mum needs to be aware of pnd or someone saying 'your kid has a rash do the glass test' or my dh/dp has xyz an actual proper dr has diagnosed it. I think it's ok for some one to say in there opinun a suituation is toxic if they are in the suituation, but people appear to forget that there are always 2 versions of each event.
Saying that sounds like ea if enough info is presented is cool but 1 incident it's just not enough. It's not quite the same as being able to say that's dv after someone posts dh just punched me in the face.

I also get wound up when people say my xyz has xyz and then either leave out that no doc has diagnosed this or just put (undiagnosed).

But yabu because I just got all excited that mn may be a secret undercover movement to target and tell on drug dealers now I find out it's not I feel rather underwhelmed

I thought garlic was very fair - she did say "how do you feel about that ?" to yellow. But I guess it's a tricky discussion for yellow, and something she feels strongly about.

Also a poster who's had depression said it really gets on her tits when people say they feel "a bit depressed" - but maybe that's their experience ? Either they have mild depression - I think there's a well recognised mild, long-standing variant ? Or else they're just using the term coloquiley ? - they feel really fed up just now. I think it's slightly unreasonable to take offence in those circumstances.

I can certainly stick my hand up and say I have no clue. I'm really sorry you're upset, yellow. I didn't know anything about BPD (and will now not use that acronym any more for bipolar disorder). I'm glad to know a little bit more now.

My anxious (avoidant) personality disorder is not an illness, it's a set of personality traits and lifelong experiences that formed my thinking and behaviour that don't work so well for me, thus the diagnosis, and causes me to have problems with anxiety, stress and depression.

It's taken years to get me to this point with a clear diagnosis, so I guess people throwing about terms willy nilly don't always have a real idea of what goes into a diagnosis, but I still think you can label people as behaving in certain ways, even say that the behaviour is like a disorder you know, just not say they have something up with them when you really don't have the correct ability or information to diagnose them.

Saying that though, it was Mumsnet that opened my eyes too a lot of things that go in that aren't okay, and it was through them that I was able to say I had an abusive childhood, with toxic parents, and learn that certain behaviours in adults are actually considered to be wrong, I wouldn't have known that otherwise. I have been referred to lots of reading and information which has helped me expand my knowledge and had support when I needed it too.

garlic personality disorders are mental health disorders, they are included in the mh act and if you visit a mh unit you will find many patients with pd.

I don't see what your getting at by saying pd isn't a mental illness?

Garlic - re: this quote of yours, ''Just to re-iterate, personality disorders are not mental illnesses. Neither are ASDs, dyslexia/dyscalula, ADD et al.

Schizophrenia is an illness. Anorexia is an illness. Depression, anxiety, bi-polar and mania can be pathological (illnesses). Illnesses threaten the health of the sufferer and can be cured, or remit. The 'disorders' above are permanent conditions which generally do not threaten the life of the sufferer.

Approximately 10% of adults have one of the aggressive Cluster B sociopathological disorders to a clinical level. This can only be approximate because the vast majority never present for treatment.''

Are YOU a doctor of Psychiatry or Psychology in the UK??
Or did you get this information from books / internet sites - if so, who were the authors & what qualifications do they have?? Are the authors of this material actual Consultant Doctors in Psychiatry or Psychology based in the UK? If this information is from statistics - who did the studies? What methodology was used?
Just interested - because it is seriously wrong & flawed.

Cluster B Personality Disorders are NOT all 'sociopathological'.
People who have Borderline Personality Disorder (or, to use the British & European name: 'Emotionally Unstable Personality Disorder') are NOT & CAN NEVER BE SOCIOPATHS OR PSYCHOPATHS OR NARCISSISTS.

Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) has symptoms. Some of those symptoms need to be medicated in certain patients.
These symptoms CAN BE life threatening.
They do threaten the health of the sufferer.
These symptoms include: Psychosis; irrationality; severe mood swings including depression; suicidal ideation; self-harm.... how exactly do PSYCHOSIS, IRRATIONALITY; MOOD SWINGS, DEPRESSION, FEELING SUICIDAL & SELF HARMING not threaten the health or life of the patient?

How exactly do the symptoms of PSYCHOSIS & SEVERE MOOD SWINGS INCLUDING SUICIDAL FEELINGS not constitute illness?

BPD has one of the HIGHEST rates of suicide of ALL mental health disorders / illnesses.
BPD sufferers are more likely to commit suicide or self harm using the most violent methods.
It is also possible to cure BPD or to go into remission in some cases - due to use of DBT therapy & medication.

PS: Kindly don't mix up PSYCHOSIS with PSYCHOPATH.

Yellowraincoat - i know where you are coming from; but it's not worth bothering to engage with people who have already made up their mind about people with BPD - especially when they have got their info from questionable sources.

If anyone would like info on BPD then speak to your local CMHT or go to the MIND website.
Avoid U.S. websites in particular.
The U.S. has a totally different approach to mental health - because they don't have free health care; then people resort to self-diagnosis from websites (which can be run by ANYONE with an agenda) & are encouraged to buy expensive meds that they may not even need; or to sign up to recieve books & other materials that contain flawed information.

Thank you Latara and Moomin for further proving my point.

Do people really think that psychiatry can be learned off the internet?

You're welcome, Goth, & YANBU definitely.

It's inappropriate & offensive to diagnose or even suggest a diagnosis of mental illness or mental health disorder just because a person is not nice or is abusive.
Offensive in particular to those who genuinely suffer mental illness & mental health disorders - & who would not, unless really unwell, behave badly towards others.

If anyone thinks they have a mental health problem or any other health problem or disorder then: go to your GP & ask for a referral.

Eg for mental health problems get referred to an NHS Psychiatrist & Community Mental Health Team.
If anyone is concerned about an adult relative / partner then visit their GP; but remember that unless that adult is in need of sectioning - then it is THEIR choice to access the appropriate health professionals to get a diagnosis & treatment if it is needed.

If you live in the U.K. then a diagnosis for a serious mental health illness / disorder should ONLY come from an NHS Psychiatrist (preferably at Consultant level) following several specialist tests & consultations face-to-face.
Treatment for that diagnosed problem (appropriate medication &/or psychotherapy with NHS Psychologists / NHS therapists) should ONLY be prescribed by an NHS Psychiatrist.

Would you look on the internet at random websites run by random people & diagnose yourself or a relative with diabetes / emphysema / osteoporosis or any other physical health condition??
NO.
So it's really not advisable to do that with mental health conditions.

I've never mixed up 'psychosis' and 'psychopath', Latara, neither do I find it necessary to SHOUT a lot.

Sociopathy is an umbrella term meaning "a personality disorder characterized by a lack of social responsibility and failure to adapt to ethical and social standards of the community".

In DSM-5, the discrete disorders such as NPD will be largely eliminated to allow for a more flexible & multideimensional diagnosis with traits such as narcissism, for example. This more closely reflects the lived experience of people such as the posters you're so keen to discredit.

Also reflecting my comments on this thread and others, the personality domain in DSM-5 is intended to describe the personality characteristics of all patients, whether they have a personality disorder or not.

I know that BPD is different from its more aggressive cousins, however it is the baseline Cluster B diagnosis and will remain so in DSM-5. I have not seen any posts in Relationships that confuse BPD (without pronounced narcissistic, sadistic or psychopathic traits) and other PDs. There may have been some, but I've not seen it in the many threads I have read. I have seen threads where a very nasty-sounding partner has been diagnosed with BPD, and have suggested the poster consider whether the partner lied about their actual diagnosis. I make no apologies for suggesting such a poster read up on PDs with narcissistic traits, for example, and make her own judgement about her partner's capacities.

We have to bear in mind that no-one is seeking or offering a psychiatric diagnosis on the Relationships board. What I, like others, try to do is raise awareness of the existence of non-NT conditions in order to help posters see their relationship doesn't operate to normal 'rules'.

It really surprises me that some people don't get it. I am, obviously, aware that some people's empathetic capabilities are limited by various conditions of their own and perhaps this explains their prioritisation of terminology over compassion in some cases.

''I am, obviously, aware that some people's empathetic capabilities are limited by various conditions of their own and perhaps this explains their prioritisation of terminology over compassion in some cases.''

Garlic - care to explain who you could be referring to??

Where is YOUR empathy & compassion?

And BPD is not a sociopathic disorder.
Yes it is cluster B.
No, not sociopathic.

I guessed you'd assume that was about you, Latara.

It seems courteous to let you know I'm hiding this thread now.

For the benefit of others who may read this: I'm hiding it because I know some battles just aren't worth fighting.

Glad to hear it.

I'm not bothering to argue with you because i know i will never change your opinions.
Sad but there you go.

I think Latara's posts were very useful and informative, (if a little shouty), that little dig about empathy was unjustified and irrelevant.

That all just read like a massive over reaction.

You really did miss that Garlic was asking a question didn't you?

Can I add "x is depressing me" or "I'm depressed because of x"
Depression is an illness. The word you are looking for is "upset".

People consulting Dr Google and then deciding to use whatever they've found to "raise awareness" makes me feel rather shouty too, tbh.

Sorry everyone - felt quite shouty after reading the thread last night...
straight after having a very difficult shift at work - due to my short-term memory problems caused by epilepsy & nerve damage caused by old epilepsy medication (on new epilepsy meds now but left with poor memory).

So i was feeling very frustrated because i enjoy my job; it's challenging & interesting & i love working with my colleagues & patients.
I already can only work 2 days a week due to severe BPD & recurrent depressive disorder symptoms.
I get bad mood swings. The old epilepsy med was also a mood stabiliser but current epilepsy meds aren't - & i can't take a new mood stabiliser because nothing else will mix with my epilepsy meds & anti-depressant.
The anti-depressant lowers my seizure threshold so despite top dose epilepsy meds i get lots of very short absence seizures - just tenths of a second to a few seconds but long enough to also cause memory problems & post-ictal confusion / slowness.

I've been told to stay on the anti-depressant by the Psychiatrist & Neurologist despite the absence seizures because i was suicidal & catatonic for a very long time - it's an SNRI (tried 2 SSRIs but had no effect on the depression). Would be different if i was having major tonic-clonic seizures - i know i'm very lucky that the epilepsy meds work enough to prevent those anyway.

But it's still frustrating to worry constantly about my job due to mental & neurological health problems - every day life is a struggle right now & i'm so angry about it.. work is good because i can concentrate on solving other people's problems; & my Psychologist has helped me with strategies to stop feeling too paranoid around my (really lovely) colleagues.
After 6 months of sick leave i'm on a 3 month probation period.... so it's all worrying. Had some good feedback but concentration & memory are main problems right now.

Couldn't sleep so was on Mumsnet; prob not the best thread for me to read under the circs!

Sorry garlic - i did take offence at the 'lacking empathy' comment.
I made myself ill worrying about other people... so being labelled as 'sociopathic' is actually complete bullshit. In the UK: BPD is NOT known as a sociopathological disorder - & it's a fact that many BPD sufferers have plenty of empathy for other people. Sometimes too much actually.

In RL - i live alone but have lots of good friends, nice colleagues, close family who like to socialise with me; if i don't phone or text them then they contact me - so i'm not a bad person.
I'm disorganised & can be paranoid; but that is all. I would NEVER deliberately upset or hurt anyone EVER physically OR emotionally (shouting again!! but i feel SO strongly about this subject).

Bless you Latara. I think this has turned into quite a challenging thread for lots of people, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Hope things work out well with your work situation Latara - things are rather unsettled for me at the moment too, so I know how you feel a bit there.

Yanbu. I cannot understand why people love labels so much. It is all so much nonsense to me. The relationship boards are full of more and more of (as far as I can see) recently invented 'personality disorders'. Some people are bullies and some are selfish. The rest of if is a job creation scheme to sell dodgy drugs. Most psychiatrists are mad, but they only admit that when they are retired.

Perhaps people using these acronyms could preface their posts with