More of a WWYD,explaining headscarves/veils to a child?

[FreeBirdsFlying]

More traffic here.

DC1 is wondering why women of certain cultures and religions cover their hair and sometimes their faces. I have explained about differing religions etc but still the question persists as to why only the women,why don't the men have to.
Does anyone have a simple way to explain it to ages 5-12 (DC2 is joining in with it) ? I'm trying and obviously failing.

Rixhteas

Take a look at the opressed women in the link.

www.vaguelyinteresting.co.uk/?p=1475

Oh and of course no bride has ever entered a Christian church wearing a veil.

In victorian England it was common for a woman in mourning to pin a face covering veil onto her hat.

OP

A veil covers long hair. Some people cover their head when praying, both men and women do this but men tend to use a hat or turban. Men who don't wear a turban still cover their heads in a a gurdawara. Women tend to wear a headscarf because it goes with her outfit.

(and sometimes because she hasn't washed her hair)

Why do women wear skirts but men don't?

Kilts

I hardly think that a bride in a veil (very unusual for a veil to cover a face anyway) is equivalent to a burqa, and it is disingenuous to suggest it is.

As for past western practices of women covering themselves, the point is that they ARE in the past - and a very good thing too, IMO.

So if I want to change the way I dress it is unfair unless my husband also changes the way he dresses? I can't make a choice independently of him?

Huh?

Can I ask again, Nailak, why does your five year old have to wear leggings under a dress? What is the reasoning behind that? What happens if she doesn't want to?

she has never not wanted to,

the reasoning is some parts are private parts.

If when she is at an age to buy her own clothes and decide what to wear herself she wants to i cant really stop her can I?

what i am saying is that i changed the way I dressed, and my husband didnt change the way he dressed. I made that decision independantly of my husband without consulting him. Yet if i walk down the street with him other women will be judging the way I dress in relation to the way he dresses. What I wear has nothing to do with him. The same way what he wears has nothing to do with me, otherwise he would be wearing thobes every day instead of jeans. or on top of jeans. The same way I do.

Islam says there is no compulsion in religion, the element of free will is very important. To force girls/women to cover up is in fact oppression in Islam and is not allowed. Those that oppress women by forcing them to cover up against their will are in fact committing a sin. I have a daughter and she will not be forced to wear a hijab, it is her choice when she is older and she will be accountable for it not me.

Muslim women cover as it cover not only as a protection from objectification but also as it is a command from Allah and by doing so the Muslim woman is obeying her Lord. I chose to become Muslim and I choose to wear hijab. I do not feel oppressed, my husband does not make me wear hijab and I do not feel that my body or any beauty I may possess should be public property. My husband dresses like any other man and that's his choice and I respect that.

If you feel so strongly that the hijab is oppressive wear it for the day, try it out for yourself then come back and discuss it with me. I feel it unfair for women to talk about hijab if they have no experience of it.

Flame me all you want.

OP I have just this week been teaching my year 7's about hijab at their request, I showed them a couple of videos on youtube about 6 year olds explaining why they wear hijab. One of the examples the girls used was the idea of a pea being protected by its pod from bugs. So after watching the video I ask my pupils can anyone tell me why Muslim girls wear hijab, one of them answers to protect them from bugs I swear I could not stop laughing.

Just thought that might lighten the mood a little.

Nailak, What I am trying to explain is that when I see an Orthodox Jewish couple/family walking down the street they are 100% of the time (in my experience) all wearing traditional modest (in their view) religious clothing. The two adults clearly agree that if modesty is important it is important for every gender and age. If you see a secularly dressed couple they will (most of the time) be dressed in a similar fashion (you rarely see very short skirts and revealing tops and loads of makeup and high heels on women with men in jogging bottoms and fleeces, in the same way you rarely see girls in very casual clothing with a guido but I am aware that it happens very occasionally so I don't need to hear about anyone's uncle's dog's brother's owner's sister and her boyfriend).

When I see a couple dressed in the manner I have described is smacks of double standards, she thinks that modest, religious dress is important for her but not for him (Why does she not question the fact that many (male) Islamic Scholars believe a woman should be covered except for her hands and face but far fewer rules exist for men?) and he at the very least 'lets' her wear it (in the sense that he doesn't have to be with or married to a woman who dresses in a way he disagrees with not that he controls what she wears) so thinks it matters too but does not dress such a way himself. It doesn't matter if the couple are Muslim, Jewish or Scientologist I would still have the same questions but part of my point is that I have never seen a disparately dressed couple from another religion.

I also thought that there was no mention in any Holy Text about wearing a hijab specifically and that the trend really started as a symbol that a woman was of a higher class and did not work (in a similar was that very pale skin was fashionable in the Western world as it showed one did not work outside in the sun) pre the 10th Century.

I found this an interesting read.

it is the concept of modesty, of course i think it is important for my husband to be modest,and i would prefer him to wear thobe, but i have no control over what he wears.

Nailak, you say that you might like your girls to wear a hijab to the mosque because it is "appropriate". And that really speaks volumes about the expectation within the muslim community. Maybe your social groups are easy going about whether girls have to wear hijab, you certainly suggest that there is zero influence amongst your friends and family, but others are not quite so relaxed. We've also seen militant muslim girls defending their right to wear a hijab on religious or traditional grounds, and there are ample examples of men enforcing hijab and other "rules" in the Middle East. We also see the very sorry sight of English girls who start to wear hijab for cultural or religious reasons and are very vocal in the need to wear this headwear. It's great that you do have a balanced attitude towards hijab, but you shouldn't let your own moderate views blind you from the fact that some women are wearing hijab not because they "feel like it" but because they will be shunned or worse if they don't. That is the problem many of us are objecting to.

Where I live you will often see men and women wearing shalwar khalmeez and various headcoverings.
Shalwar khalmeez and abayas are no more uncomfortable then jeans and a t shirt. Anyone would think it's chainmail + and suit of armour. They are actually very comfortable and cover a multitude of sins.

As for past western practices of women covering themselves, the point is that they ARE in the past - and a very good thing too, IMO.

Not in the past, many women still cover their heads, and why would it be a good thing not to?

A woman should be able to wear what they want, not have society dictate what they can and cannot do.

Some women cover their head all the time, witha scarf, turban or wig. Others ony while praying, in a place of worship whether praying or not.

I don't know any non religious women who routinely cover their heads in circumstances when their male companions might not do so (ie when it is very cold, or at a very formal top hat/fancy hat do).

I'm not disputing in any way that there may well be households where one partner might be more religiously observant than the other, but whilst I too have seen a fair few families with the dad and sons in something very western and casual like football kits with the wife and daughters hidden away, I have never seen the opposite. Not to say it doesn't happen of course, but it does jar very much on my atheist feminist eye.

I find watching very traditional Christian families who have similar gender rules uncomfortable too - all those Duggar girls in skirts/dresses, or the Mennonite groups around here where the women all wear very similar outfits (ultra long skirts and head coverings) although I don't know what the men wear in those groups. I think it's probably the apparent conformity I find disturbing as much as what appears to me to be sexist hypocrisy.

I think that the best way to explain it is within the contest of the blanket of misogyny and oppression that underpins most organised religions.

context, not contest. Doh.

Nailak, if you are teaching your dd that parts of her body like her legs and, in future, her hair are private and should be covered then she is not making a free choice to cover them and her ability to make a free choice in future will be limited.

And sashh, as nooka says, I don't know of any woman who would cover her head unless there was a religious, medical or comfort issue. In fact, women in the west have never consistently covered their heads. There have been periods when it was normal for hair to be covered and others when it was fashionable for hair to be uncovered. When I spoke of past practices of covering women, I was thinking more about modest dress, long sleeves and skirts that restricted what women could do and presented them as a weaker sex. So yes, I am glad that is in the past and I am glad that legal distinctions that subordinated women are also in the past. People are never able to dress exactly as they like - we are always going to be socially conditioned to some degree as to what is acceptable and appropriate - but there are better and worse ways of drawing those boundaries.

6 year olds in hijab ? I had understood (and forgive me if this is wrong, I'm pretty ignorant on the subject) that the requirement to wear hijab only started at puberty - I'm sure I've heard some pretty sniffy comments from Muslims about parents who put their young children in hijab. Can anyone enlighten me ?

This went off on a tangent lol.

DC1 is still not convinced tbh (why does the man have his face visable then ). I would never send DC2 up to ask why they wear a hijab,only because after twenty million questions and about two hours she would have satisfied her curiousty. I'm sure most folk don't have a spare two hours . She once asked a man with obvious facial injury what happened,why,when,what hospital,was there an ambulance.....poor man was exasperated and as we were on a bus,he couldn't well get away from her . I kept saying leave the man alone,hes tired but out of politness he says no its ok,and on and on she went.

The man has his face visible because a man is not someone's chattel, whose value lies in his chastity and whose sexuality has to be hidden to preserve his chastity.

Can somone please help me what i dont understand is why if its supposed to be about being modest do i often see girls with the heads covered but tons and tons of balck eye make up and fiundation that could rival TOWIE

Also if its supposed to be modest how is that so if your in a area were this is not the norm you are more likey to draw attention to have people looking at you if your all dressed in black or with your head covered.

Also why are you allowed to uncover you head in front of other women if its about people not looking at you in a sexual way you have no clue weather other women are stright

I often see girls down here wearing head scaves teamed with 6 inch heels skinny jeans and blazer hardly modest
I often see women who are in headscaves butin no way are dressed modestly

Also this practice of babies and toddlers having their hair covered

Also to those who say its the womans choice i live in a asian are i often see girls on the bus wipping it off on the bus on the way to school (hardly free will)
Free will would be not having to pretend to your parents your wearing it whilest having a bag ready to shove it in as soon as your out the door.

because they see it as part of their cultural identity, as has been explained up thread.

I agree you shouldnt have to pretend.

As for free choice, if I believe something is true I will teach my kids it. You wouldnt not teach your kids manners and say it is taking away their right to free choice, or not teach them to not be racist and say it is taking away their right to free choice, I will bring them up understanding I believe this as a Muslim, and others believe differently. The same way an athiest would tell their kids that they dont believe but others think differently.

I dont get how modest dress restricted women? If we look at the female companions of the Prophet and his wives etc, they fought wars and battles, sometimes better then men in modest clothing!

freebirds I would be happy to discuss with your dc and answer questions. For me I would be glad he came and asked me. Or you did if you werent sure. I am happy to answer questions about these things. People cant be expected to understand if no one explains.

Is this where the "people are different and do different things for different reasons" line of thought should come in?

Oops, silly me, I forgot, Muslims don't get to be individuals.

This is why I detest these threads. People will give you their own experiences and people will still come out with "but what about so and so and this person I saw once..."

Always the underlying message is that Muslims as a minority group should be grateful that we are "allowed" to wear hijab and niqab and as a price we must forever have to justify and explain that choice.

I go to a mainly Arabic school. The ladies who wear just the head scarves are now some of my closest friends. The ones in the ones that cover everything but their face won't even make eye contact with me when I smile at them? :(

Can a Muslim explain this to me? I don't understand and I feel weird asking my mates.

GothAnneGoddess As soon as someone (Muslim or otherwise) presents a valid, logical, non sexist (the current 'rules' with regards to Muslim dress are sexist, there is not two ways about it!) argument for wearing a hijab when no such law exists for men/boys etc then I will stop asking (if someone decides to start wearing one at 20 having never worn one before that is a different situation, I'm talking about girls of 11). As soon as someone can explain to me why o why o why a 5/6/7 year old needs to wear a headscarf I will stop asking (I know it's not part of Islamic law so why does it happen so often in some communities?). I don't think that every hijab wearing woman/girl in this country is a victim of oppression but pretending that they don't exist is shameful.

I've asked many many people of all ages these questions and no one has managed it yet so I will keep asking for justification and explanation. As nailak rightly said no one can be expected to understand without explanation.