More of a WWYD,explaining headscarves/veils to a child?

[FreeBirdsFlying]

More traffic here.

DC1 is wondering why women of certain cultures and religions cover their hair and sometimes their faces. I have explained about differing religions etc but still the question persists as to why only the women,why don't the men have to.
Does anyone have a simple way to explain it to ages 5-12 (DC2 is joining in with it) ? I'm trying and obviously failing.

I understand what you are saying, but I wouldnt agree in making the child think that Muslim women are all people from other countries.

I dont understand why it is ok to force a woman to not wear hijab, but not to force her to wear it?

In turkey you cannot even wear headscarf in work, uni etc.

"They are wearing what they want. At least in this country. They want to follow the tradition and they are choosing to wear headscarves most of the time"

This is true of most adult muslim women in the UK I assume.

But I have to say, I find it difficult to get my head around how much free choice has gone into the decision to wear hijab when it comes to the two girls in ds's class (year 2) who have been wearing it since nursery.

"I dont understand why it is ok to force a woman to not wear hijab, but not to force her to wear it?"

It's not ok. It's barking.

I think women should be allowed to wear hijab if they want.

No it's not right at all to suggest that muslim women are from another country. No body has said that. It's only face-covering women that trouble me. If a child asks about a hijab wearing women, it's much easier to say she's muslim and that's part of her tradition. Where does one draw the line? Simple, at covering the face.

Turkey I think is worried about the "thin end of the wedge". Being a muslim country, they know that this year hijabs next year burkas. That is why they are vigilant against it, and that is a good lesson for Britain.

"Why is ok to force a woman to not wear hijab"...You mean "Why is it ok to ban a woman from wearing a hijab". First, personally I don't have a problem with hijabs, though as explained above, I can see why Turkey does. If the question is "Why is it ok to ban a woman from covering her face (burka/niqab)?" I would say because a) it's not natural, b) it symbolises repression, c) it's dangerous, d) it divides society, and e) it's not beautiful.

Turkey no longer stops women from wearing a scarf at universities etc...

Tell them it's their tradition.

I think 'why don't you ask her' is actually the most respectful answer here.

Let's face it, you don't know why the lady is wearing a veil and teaching your child to ask first before judging, might be the best lesson you can give.

I haven't read the thread - but couldn't you approach it from a practical aspect? In hot weather/when working/windy it's very normal to pull your hair back in a ponytail or wear a hat, and that's one of the reasons, then that from there it became traditional to do it all the time, like people wear white to play cricket (sorry, first thing that came to mind),

I would tell her it is a tradition, and a sexist one that represents gender inequality. I would tell her I don't agree with it.

Depending on her age, I would also discuss other cultural examples apart from in Islam, such as Christian nuns and even brides who wear a veil over their face as they walk down the aisle.

There is no parallel illustrating how girls cover up more than boys in her little world. Not even a swimming costume as someone suggested (at 3 years old she wears swim knickers, not a full swimming costume, just like little boys).

my dds dont wear hijab at 3 and 4, but i know some kids that age that do, it is mainly as they pester their mums to wear it.

you cant really force a kid of that age to wear hijab. I mean I have a hard time getting mine to keep their hoods on when it is raining!

see i wouldnt say you are wrong for putting you dd in swimming knickers.

would you say I was wrong for having my kids wear leggings under dresses etc?

If my dds asked why your dd had no top, I would just say because she doesnt want to. I wouldnt see the need to go in to anything more.

Nailak do the mothers of the hijab wearing young girls ask you when your girl will wear a hijab? Will they accept your girl if she decides (ha ha) that she doesn't want to wear one even when she's a teenager? I wonder if she has that kind of freedom within her own community?

I worked in an all girls' secondary school where 80-85% of the students were Muslims, from a variety of countries, mostly born abroad (around 75%). I asked many of them why they wore a headscarf over the 2 years I worked there (I worked with year 7-10) and the most popular answer by far was "because my cousin is at this school and she will tell my auntie if I don't". We also had 3 girls hospitalised for accidentally swallowing pins when redoing their scarves.

The reason I have more problems with traditional Muslim dress for females is the inequality. The "dress code" for male Hassidic Jews is as strict (if not stricter) as for women. Ditto nuns and monks. It was fairly common to see a women in a niqab walking on the high street near the school with a man in designer jeans, trainers and tshirt. I have never seen such a contrast amongst the Jewish community in Stoke Newington for example. If I was that deeply religious I would not be happy marring such an religiously unobservant husband.

well if you read my previous posts you will see that even amongst my family some girls wear hijab and some dont, and no one cares.

One of my nieces started wearing at 9, another at 21 and some still dont wear it, my sis in law started wearing it in her 40's and my other sis in law doesnt wear it.

The mothers of the girls who wear hijab have never asked me the question when will they wear hijab. Will they accept her if she doesnt? well i am not psychic, but my best friend doesnt wear hijab, why would that make a difference? Also my nieces friends vary in hijab wearingness and religion! lol. This "community" you speak off, doesnt really exist for second generation immigrants and other Muslims born here. We arent linked to a particular cultural community, or nationality segregated community, or a particular mosque etc. My community is those mums I have met at childrens centre and in my local area, and are of different backgrounds, some wear hijab, some dont.

My dds do wear it on occassion when they want to, but i tend to discourage it as I know they will take it off and make hassle for the teacher having to look after it etc, however at appropriate times like going to mosque i will encourage it.

and why are you laughing at decides? is it because of your own preconceptions and prejudices?

fgs inequality, that is like me saying, I have regularly seen a woman wakling down the street in a a low cut top and tight jeans, while her partner wears comfortable clothing.

Have you never seen the many girls who wear hijab and skinny jeans etc?

When my DS was about 5, he saw a,lady in full hijab (just eyes visable, hope that is right term). This was very uncommon in our area and he shouted and pointed to woman, who was perhaps 10m away. I held my breath.
"There's a lady who covers her beauty"

Much relief from me, hope she heard him.

I teach my DD5 that beauty is in the heart.

dd1(5) even

nailak, I believe that modesty is about more then the amount of fabric on your body. I think it is, in part, linked to not spending hundreds or even thousands on vanity. If a woman (or man for that matter) decides to dress modestly for any reason I don't understand why she would marry a man (or he would marry a woman) who clearly displays the fact that they don't share those views.

that is your belief,

have you seen the prices of abayahs these days? women spend hundreds of pounds on them, it is not their belief that modesty is linked to not spending hundreds of pounds?

www.lebaas.co.uk/khaleeji-abayas-dubai/emirati-fashion-abaya-p-256.html

the women with husbands wearing designer clothes are probably wearing designer clothes themselves!!

Personally I didnt dress the way I do now when i got married. Because I have changed my way of dress, why should I expect my husband to? why cant i just be me, but I have to be judged on the appearance of my husband too? because he is dressed like that and I am dressed like this etc, what I wear has nothing to do with him.

And also you dont understand their belief system the belief is that a man has to be covered in loose fitting clothing from navel to knee and that is his private parts, and a woman has different private parts.

The Abaya you linked to is £75, a wallet in Louis Vuitton is around £300. That's worlds apart. I'm not judging anyone on the way they or their partner dresses. I'm concerned with why they dress that way. Or, why they dress so differently. Why are large multi coloured flashy logos acceptable for men but not for women (I have only seen girls/women wearing black/dark blue niqabs and abayas sometimes with a few flowers on although I know that colourful/logoed hijabs are common)?

What is considered a woman's private parts? I assume it's a much larger percentage of her body than a man? Why is that?

Anyway, we seem to have horrendously highjacked this thread, sorry OP!

They may well be wearing designer clothes under the abaya and carrying a very expensive handbag.

"I don't know, why don't you ask them"

brilliant response

yes blue and those who have husbands wearing designer clothes, would have designer handbags shoes, and clothes aswell. I showed the mid range abaya prices.
here is real designer stuff, doesnt look that different www.barjis.co.uk/index.php
around here the women wear other colours as well, pastel colours, purple, green, with embroidery and stuff on.

my question is why does the way I dress have to be regarded in combination with the way the men around me dress. Why do I have to be compared to a my husband or father?

The reason for the comparison, Nailak, is that the op's dd has looked at men and women dressed differently and thought it is unfair. And so it is. It is unfair that women in these cultures have half the value of a man (in terms of inheritance and value of testimony). It is unfair that their sexuality is seen as something that has to be protected and hidden from men.

It was unfair ways similar (although never as extreme) way in catholicism, but much of Christianity has changed. There is no Christian state that enforces such rules. Some Christian groups do have unequal gender roles, and I think that is unfair for those brought up in the group. I have a friend who became a very religious Christian. Her marriage ceremony was all about how the husband is the boss in the marriage. I was a bit that she had chosen this, but I suppose it was a free choice. I also know Jewish women who have chosen to become more religious and cover their hair. Again, their choice. But what bothers me is that these women will do their best to make sure their dcs do not have the same free choice over the direction of their life. They will make sure their dcs are educated in their values, socialise with people of similar values etc. They will try to limit other influences. when their daughters marry they may feel they are making a free choice, but it is in no way as free as their mothers' ( who had often trialled a few lifestyles before they settled).

Out of interest, Nailak, what would you do if your dds didn't want to wear leggings under their dresses? Do they have an option?